Modern civilizations bet

[Evie]

Probable. Though I would not be wholly surprised if INsular and Continetal Celts were kept apart in the long run. In which case Irish in Ancient (Could even be Dal Riatta?) leading into Exploration Scotland could also work, while Gaul can serve as an alternative to Roman precursors for all those continental civs.

 

[Zaarin]

Dal Riata would be interesting.

 

[Leucarum]

I 100% expect Antiquity Gaul and about 75% expect Exploration Ireland; I'm less convinced of Modern Scotland, despite how uncomfortable Ireland > Britain may be...Also, most through lines seem to be at least somewhat synergistic in game play. Militarist/economic Gaul > cultural Ireland > scientific Scotland is all over the place.

Gaul was definitely a very cool design, I could see them making it in and probably keeping some elements...

 

[Nic@Melbourne]

2. Qing is not real china. It is no ok to select the leader just because he or she invaded and occupied the land as a foreigner.

This is the history of the world. Populations and identity are not static.
Many places the ruling class are a different ethnic group to all the their subjects.
This is literally what the Norman Civ is, not to mention many others.
National Identity is a modern lense .

 

[Zaarin]

Gaul was definitely a very cool design, I could see them making it in and probably keeping some elements...

It looked nice on paper and felt thematic, but I found it tedious to play as. Still, I think the core idea of "defensive and industrious" could be translated into something fun.

 

[AriochIV]

It looked nice on paper and felt thematic, but I found it tedious to play as. Still, I think the core idea of "defensive and industrious" could be translated into something fun.

Yeah, I found it very gimmicky. I didn't even make it through a full game with them.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Dal Riata would be interesting.

Picts for an alternative. There are strong Celtic elements in their cultural features, fascinating graphic elements in their designs, and geographically and culturally they could lead to either Scotland or Ireland. Heck, they founded Dun Eid, which is modern Edinburgh, and anybody who can field city names like Portnockie. Dundarg, Dundurn, and Alt Clut deserves inclusion just for the funny-looking map they could generate . . .

 

[Zaarin]

Picts for an alternative. There are strong Celtic elements in their cultural features, fascinating graphic elements in their designs, and geographically and culturally they could lead to either Scotland or Ireland. Heck, they founded Dun Eid, which is modern Edinburgh, and anybody who can field city names like Portnockie. Dundarg, Dundurn, and Alt Clut deserves inclusion just for the funny-looking map they could generate . . .

It's still controversial whether there was a P-Celtic substrate in Ireland (the theory has largely fallen out of favor), though Cruithne appears to be cognate to Pict. They'd definitely be a regional unlock, though, and a more reasonable one than Egypt > Songhai or Maya > Inca. We don't know a lot about their culture, though, beyond that they were Celts. I've not been fond of including the Britons, but they would be easier to design (and hilariously if you asked me to design them I'd probably give them a Balnea and Mithraeum forming a Castrum district as unique infrastructure because the Britons were thoroughly Romanized...).

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I 100% expect Antiquity Gaul and about 75% expect Exploration Ireland; I'm less convinced of Modern Scotland, despite how uncomfortable Ireland > Britain may be...Also, most through lines seem to be at least somewhat synergistic in game play. Militarist/economic Gaul > cultural Ireland > scientific Scotland is all over the place.

If Britian ends up being based off the Victorian Era of the British Empire, that will probably mean that any hypothetical Exploration Age England, Scotland, or Ireland civ would go into them.

 

[Franc007She]

This is the history of the world. Populations and identity are not static.
Many places the ruling class are a different ethnic group to all the their subjects.
This is literally what the Norman Civ is, not to mention many others.
National Identity is a modern lense .

QIng's ruller considered them as non-chinese history. What you are talking about is the insult against both of chinese and manchurian.

 

[gdr_willter]

QIng's ruller considered them as non-chinese history. What you are talking about is the insult against both of chinese and manchurian.

Well, the rullers of Goguryeo and Balhae considered them as non-Chinese history, but you Chinese claim they belong to Chinese because their main population was Mohe people, the direct ancestors of Jurchen who founded Qing. And now you're saying Qing is not Chinese because its rullers are not Han nation? No way. Choose one, you can't take both of those statements at the same time.

 

[Verified_Confection_Being]

That poster hasn't said anything about Korea as far as I'm aware, it's not fair to tar him with the worst elements of a group.

I feel like the temperature needs turning down on both sides of the debate on this thread. Civilization and the way it's portrayed is intricately bound up with identity, and there are going to be some people who feel deeply insulted by some aspects of this game.

Much like back in Civ V when an anasazi civ was abandoned because it's people didn't want to be presented (either in the proposed way or at all), I think we need a bit more respect and acknowledgement towards people who feel frustrated with the way the people theu identify with and portrayed, and less dismissal. And on the other hand, we need some calmer ways for those frustrations to be expressed. Perhaps a civ transition venting thread would help this kind of chat to have a place where it belongs without derailing conversation in other threads?

This stuff isn't going to go away, and right now I can see people stick fingers into wounds making things worse. We need a bit more empathy and acknowledgement that we're all a community that loves aspects of civ rather than this focus on things we dont like about one another's outlook.

 

[Siptah]

When people said exploration Ireland, I always imagined a civ based on the 5th-7th century Ireland, with it’s unique missionary GPs. I would like such a civ very much and it would tie in nicely with the Exploration Age. Now that I realize many people mean „just“ another insular Celtic people, I don’t want this. I‘d like to have continental Celts first, and all Celts (apart from a hypothetical #153 Brittany) in the Antiquity Age.

But this is a bit off-topic for a thread about the Modern Age. For this Age, while there are gaping omissions in the base game, I also hope we‘ll see another surprise soon. It would be nice to see that civ #50 isn‘t one from everyone’s agreed upon wishlist.

 

[gdr_willter]

That poster hasn't said anything about Korea as far as I'm aware, it's not fair to tar him with the worst elements of a group.

Oh, Well, Yea, but denying Qing is the typical way of the usual Chinese nationalist that we Korean always see. And I am Korean nationalist, so (s)he is my natural enemy! (JK)

The point is (s)he have to stop being so much nationalist in this thread. What a long conversation only filled with the great China denying its last dynasty.

 

[uppi]

Do you mean this one?

View attachment 710976

I'm pretty sure that's French infantry of WWII, or at least the helmet is French. They have it in the slide about Independent Powers, but the labeling on the slides in this presentation are wildly inaccurate, so I can't read too much into that.

Yes, that is the one I mean.

You are right that we probably shouldn't read too much into it, but it does suggest that there are European independent powers who are using these assets.

 

[queenpea]

There being a full thread on this already, and we know we are only receiving 10 civilizations in the Modern Age, I defer to the experts:

1. America
2. Britain
3. Buganda
4. France
5. Meiji
6. Mexico
7. Mughal
8. Siam
9. Qing (semi-confirmed per the leak)
10. Russia (my guess)

For a lot of reasons, I would be happy to leave Russia out of Vanilla. However, we haven't seen much evidence for a civilization like the Ottomans, and a path for Germany doesn't seem to exist (for Germany, you are looking at Spain or Normans as its predecessor). For Russia, you have both Mongolia as the "obvious" predecessor, however I can see Mongolia leading to Qing by default as well.

I would like to go out on a limb and suggest a Modern Age indigenous civilization to prevent Shawnee from defaulting to America, but I don't know how likely this would be.

 

[Wohlauf]

Yes, that is the one I mean.

You are right that we probably shouldn't read too much into it, but it does suggest that there are European independent powers who are using these assets.

It is a bit unfortunate that from what we've seen, modern units seem to have much less cultural variety than we've seen with antiquity and exploration units, with a few notable exceptions. This may just be due to the modern era only lightly being shown off, but we've seen only one ww2 fighter (zero), one battleship (vaguely Iowa class), one cruiser (made up, but vaguely American), one tracked artillery (m40 155mm gun carraige), and one mechanized infantry (lvt-4).

I know not every country was at the forefront of weapons technologies, and there was plenty of lend lease and weapon sales to explain shared/similar unit assets, but going from 10 distinct styles for antiquity units to 1-3 different assets with a different coat of paint at the end of the modern era would be very disappointing.

My hope is that they've purposefully shown off the same unit models to save some for civ reveals and livestreams.

 

[Evie]

We've seen at least three, and I believe more, battleships, probably from two different tier (though three is technically possible): Pseudo-Iowa, Pseudo-Dreadnaught and Pseudo-Mikasa.

 

[Wohlauf]

I should have specified ww2 era for only having one example. Considering that unit comes after the pre-dreadnoughts, of which I imagine the Mikasa-esque one is a cultural variant, I would like to see the same with the modern battleships. Bismarck, Yamato, Hood or Nelson, and Roma would all make for great ww2 battleship models without necessarily being a UU.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I should have specified ww2 era for only having one example. Considering that unit comes after the pre-dreadnoughts, of which I imagine the Mikasa-esque one is a cultural variant, I would like to see the same with the modern battleships. Bismarck, Yamato, Hood or Nelson, and Roma would all make for great ww2 battleship models without necessarily being a UU.

One of the 'problems' with the Modern Age is that there are far fewer variations available, because fewer and fewer Civs had the capability to build their on.

To take Dreadnaught Battleships and medium tanks for two prime examples, between 1906 and 1945 only 9 countries built any Battleships: Britain, Germany, USA, Russia, France, Austria, Italy, Japan, and Spain. Between 1935 and 1945 only 5 countries built any medium tanks: Britain, Germany, USA, Soviet Union, and Argentina. Using the standard definition of a tank weighing over 20 tons and mounting at least a 75mm gun, neither Japan nor Italy deployed any production medium tanks before their defeat. Australia and Canada both produced medium tanks, but they were largely produced with armament, machinery and designs from Britain or the USA.

Even extending the timeline to the advent of Main Battle Tanks around 1960 (Civ's "Modern Armor" units) only adds France, Switzerland and Sweden to the list: 8 medium tank-capable Civs at a time when, IRL, there were over 100 countries (Civs or IPs) in the world.

And, at least in the designs of Battleships, there isn't that much to choose from. After the initial rather bizaare designs with main turrets offset to either side, they boil down to symmetrical main gun turrets fore an aft, like the British Queen Elizabeth class with 4 2-gun turrets with 15" (375mm) guns or the similar German Bismarck class, or asymmetrical designs, usually with 2 turrets forward and 1 aft with 3 guns each, like the US Iowa and immediately preceding classes, the Japanese Yamato class or the French Jean Bart or Italian Roma classes. That doesn't give a lot of distinctive graphical differences to play with unless you plan to zoom in a lot for the details of superstructures, stacks and masts, and such zooming in and out frankly just gives me a headache after a short time.