Morality of Financial Domination

If she ever takes back that massage thing, I might help her make some of that income you desire is she is at least willing and able to take it to L1. Also, if she makes money, wouldn't that ruin your tax avoidance scheme as her income would put up your joint return to taxation land?
 
Well, the honeymoon period is over as Borachio points out, but there are still a fair amount of romantic moments we share. We usually do something romantic every Friday since our daughter spends the night with my parents every Friday night. Now that the weather is getting nicer we are going to resume our little hikes through the woods around here as well. There's also a good bit of cuddle time on the couch at night when we are watching our shows.

So we definitely aren't super-passionate about each other anymore, but the love is still there.

Ahh so you do have a softer, kinder side. :p

Either way, I wish you both well in the future.
 
Well, I read the first post and the last bit, without figuring out how the two connect...but here's a statement.

Money doesn't really make the world go round.

It sounds like Commodore is operating from 'the handling of money is the privilege, reserved for the enjoyment of he who makes the money'. If his wife shares this perspective than this may well be "Financial Domination", but it isn't necessarily. There are people who just frankly don't give a damn about money. They know that they are capable of meeting their needs in a myriad of ways, so they can look the 'noble breadwinner' in the eye and say 'sod off' if they ever feel so inclined.

I have to guess that Ms C is not one of those people, or at the very least that Mr C hopes that she is not one of those people.
 
The myth of witch burning lives on. The Salem witch trials was basically small town vigilant justice, rather than true just. Only once the trials moved to Boston did justice get served and no woman got convicted. In fact for much of history just to survive both the husband and wife had to work just to support their family. It is only because of the wealth of modern times that women didn't have to work and could stay at home if they chose to, but before the industrial revolution it was a case of work or die.
What you call it is irrelevant to the women who were unjustly accused and murdered. And I was actually thinking of Tudor England when I wrote that post. Specifically, Anne Boleyn. One of the charges against her was witchcraft, and the usual method of execution was burning. But Henry VIII decided to be merciful and have her head lopped off instead, since it was quicker and she wouldn't suffer as much. It never occurred to him that she might actually be innocent of all those charges, and he should have just admitted that he wanted to get rid of her for not bearing him a living son.

She's only three and already does chores around the house and really loves helping out so I can see she already has a strong work ethic. And before you say anything about making a 3-year-old do chores, it was actually my wife that got that started as I am of the philosophy of letting kids be kids and enjoy their childhood.
What chores can a 3-year-old do beyond "pick up your toys"? I will admit that this was about the extent of what my mother expected of me, since she figured I'd just break anything I touched or hurt myself. Then a few years later, she wondered why I hadn't magically absorbed the knowledge of how to do the things she hadn't let me do earlier.

...the post you are responding to with this statement was written under the assumption that I eventually cave to her wishes. If I did that, then I would be both the financial provider and the one doing all the housework. If that were to occur, she would pretty much be a useless lump who is just spending all the money. That is a situation I absolutely refuse to allow. I am not going to completely take care of a fully-grown, able-bodied adult so they can just sit around and do whatever they please all day.
Okay, but it wasn't clear that you were speaking of a hypothetical future situation. It sounds as though you consider her a child right now.

My wife has repeatedly stated if we end up getting divorced she would take our daughter and move back in with her parents. Now, she has a father and an uncle that are sex offenders and their offenses are related to sexual misconduct with minors. So my wife has pretty much admitted to me that she would willingly put her daughter in the same house with a sex offender and just a few miles away from another one that would have access to her. If the court doesn't see that as being an unfit parent, well...then I seriously doubt the judgment of that court.
Presumably her father and uncle are not allowed to have contact with children. If they did, wouldn't they be in trouble?

Well, if I do end up having to divulge the existence of this account, I wouldn't want her lawyer to know exactly what to look for in the accounts, now would I?
It's amazing what can be found out or guessed from forum posts. Of course it's also amazing how that can be twisted.

Are you referring to my wife or daughter here? In either case, no I would not try to take whatever money either one of them make. In fact, I have always told my wife that if she ever does get a job, then I don't care what she does with her money as long as she makes a fair contribution towards the bills. The same would go for my daughter, with exception to the contribution to the bills part. That wouldn't kick in until she is an adult and only of she is still living at home.
Your daughter, obviously. I assume your wife is not between the ages of 11-18 years (typically the years during which girls take babysitting jobs).

But I did wonder if you do, or will, give your daughter an allowance and if so, what she would have to do to earn it. I got an allowance during the years when my dad and I lived with his then-girlfriend, but that stopped when we moved in with my grandparents. They didn't believe in allowances, so any spending money I had as a teenager came from babysitting and working in the school library. I had chores around the house - dishwashing, vacuuming, mowing the lawn, dog walking, helping to shovel the snow, and taking out the garbage.

Agreed, but it doesn't really pay the bills now does it? If we didn't have any money, the landlord isn't going to care how spotless my wife keeps the apartment; if we can't pay the rent then we are out.
My point is that housework is work. It just is. If she didn't do it, you'd have to do it yourself, teach your kid to do it, or hire someone.

She's not stupid, but she's not exactly the resourceful type either. Couple that with the fact that she is not technically-inclined at all and I go to great lengths to hide my presence online and the chances are pretty slim that she would be able to find all of my online activity. I also make her think that I can't hide anything from her by letting her catch me in a few minor lies. That makes her confident that she knows everything I'm up to and dissuades her from prying any further into my activities.
So you see nothing wrong with lying to your wife. Wow. :rolleyes:

The way it works is she usually tells me how much she would like for the day and tells me what she needs it for. If we have the money available I usually give it to her without further questioning. Although I never give it to her in cash, I just transfer it to the joint account so she uses the debit card and I can see that she is actually spending the money on what she says she is going to spend it on. I do keep her appraised of our current financial situation in terms of what all of our monthly bills are and how much is owed, as well as how much money we still have available for the month. If I make a major purchase, I'll tell her about it (with major being defined as anything over $50); minor ones I won't. I do ask for her opinion on major financial decisions, she just doesn't have any actual decision-making authority when it comes to money.
So she's not allowed to handle cash? Really? What if some purchase she wants to make is one where the business won't take a debit card (if the purchase is below the minimum amount some businesses require)? What if there's something that's really needed and she couldn't buy it because the store's debit card machine wasn't working?

Why don't you just microchip her and get it over with?

As an aside: I do find it a bit odd that you seem so certain as to what constitutes a "real loving husband" when you have never been married yourself. If you've never been married all you have to go on are theories and anecdotes since you have never experienced the realities of being married to another person. It just seems to me you are taking what you believe constitutes a loving husband and trying to pass that off as objective fact.
Uh-huh. Like never having been married somehow disqualifies me from discussing topics to do with marriage. Naturally, the rest of you recuse yourselves from talking about women's issues because you're not female. Oh, wait...

I've had several decades of observing various marriages in my family and among friends and acquaintances. The most successful of them are those where both parties are honest with each other. My mother was divorced twice. My youngest aunt was divorced once. Another aunt went through several marriages. My dad never remarried after divorcing my mother, but he lived with a succession of girlfriends, and the last one lived in a trailer on our property (and made life hell for my grandmother and me for more years than I care to remember).

My grandparents, on the other hand, stayed married for 1 day shy of 52 years (my grandfather died the day before their 52nd anniversary). He and my grandmother had mutual respect and honesty. She hadn't worked at an outside job for several decades before he died, but he didn't have an "I give you a roof over your head and food on the table, so get busy with the cooking and cleaning and I won't trust you with the finances or even let you have cash" attitude. He didn't sneak around on her, and even if he was the one who actually made most of the major purchases, she at least had input into them, knew what was going on, and he expected her to be able to step in and handle things if he got sick or died (which is what happened).
 
"Financial domination" normally refers to a kink/fetish practice in which the dom takes or receives money from the sub.
 
I agree with the second of your two sentences.

Most marriages are unequal in the decisionmaking, from what I've seen. In some marriages it is explicit, in some it is implicit, and in some both spouses seem to be completely oblivious to it.

As long as the decisions are legitimately taking the health and happiness of both spouses into account, then I don't see the problem.

There's a clear difference between deferring to one's partner and acquiescing to their threats.


Right now, sure. But the post you are responding to with this statement was written under the assumption that I eventually cave to her wishes. If I did that, then I would be both the financial provider and the one doing all the housework. If that were to occur, she would pretty much be a useless lump who is just spending all the money. That is a situation I absolutely refuse to allow. I am not going to completely take care of a fully-grown, able-bodied adult so they can just sit around and do whatever they please all day
From what I've heard. It seems like your wife isn't aiming to get you to do all the housework. It seems like she's asking you to do certain things.

You don't seem to be listening to her and are acting with threats. That's a great way to build resentment.
 
I'm not so sure that spending money isn't hard work itself. I've got a lot of trouble doing it. Finding the money seems to be a bit of a problem to begin with. It's a lot easier to just not spend any.
 
Well, I read the first post and the last bit, without figuring out how the two connect...but here's a statement.

Money doesn't really make the world go round.

I don't know, money gives you freedom in the material world. Sure you can rise above that and eliminate desires, but that's too much work.
 
I've thought about this for a bit. We have an ideal that marriage should be an equal partnership and the couple should trust each other and share everything. However, I think it often doesn't work out that way and if some people are just more realistic/pessimistic about it, maybe that makes sense.

However, I still think you're too controlling about the money. I do agree that if one partner is the sole breadwinner then it does give him/her more leverage over the finances but not to that degree. I think a daily allowance and no say in financial decisions is too much. Also I thought its not such a good attitude that you said you wanted her to get more into debt so you could have more control. I'm surprised I'm the first one to comment on that ( I think ).

I think some people might want to be in a relationship like that because they want stability and don't want to have to make decisions themselves. If your wife comes from a background where her father is a sex offender and then as an adult she got into debt I can see why she would want more stability even if it came with less freedom. However, that might change if she starts to see things differently.
 
I forgot about the housework. I think if you're working full time even most weekends and studying its fair that she does all the housework except - maybe look at how much time she really spends looking after the child and doing errands, perhaps it's more than you realize. Also, what kind of housework is this? Does she just want you to pick up after yourself a little more?
 
Uh-huh. Like never having been married somehow disqualifies me from discussing topics to do with marriage. Naturally, the rest of you recuse yourselves from talking about women's issues because you're not female. Oh, wait...

Nice one, Mrs D'Ur!
 
To Commodores original question, moral authority does not spring from economic strength. It comes from acting with a righteous mind. There are ample situations in which your relationship is morally upstanding but not because one party has the economic upper hand over another. From your posts it does not appear that you being moral because you are assuming moral authority through your economic strength.


Marriage is an economic entity and each partner makes a different but equally important contribution.


The notion that marriage is somehow inherently equalizes the contributions from both partners is so absurd as to be laughable.

I'm sure when her attorney makes a proper request in discovery that you will follow the rules and turn over the contents of this thread, right?


CFC, come for the morality discussions, stay for the practice tips.
 
Capitalism, the welfare system (which is actually a major aspect of Capitalism as well) and free trade are the strongest coduits for feminism in the West. Men and women are of roughly the same intelligence, though men have an edge in physical strength. In times when physically demanding work was common, societies were male centric. As work becomes less physically demanding due to outsourcing, some men will lose out against women in professional settings and men have less of an edge.

It's no surprise that some of the most male-dominated countries are agrarian or industrial in nature, as opposed to service oriented.
I understand your point but its flawed. Men do not dominate because they are/were more suited to physical labour. Field hands don't run a plantation, the master does, and he's probably the physically weakest man on the property. Typically, the biggest strongest workers are the lowest on the totem pole. Men dominate the societies they do because men in those societies worked very early to set them up that way, through religion, law, tradition etc. It has nothing to do with "superior physical strength" or any merit-based reason of any kind.

Men don't even really have an edge physically, our "edge" is mostly due to size and/or muscle mass. A larger woman is generally stronger than a smaller man. Not to mention that women have better physical balance than men... Ever watch kids try balance beam for the first time? The girls are naturals, the boys are ludicrous up there *facepalm*:nope:

Men might be larger on average, but that is as much about culture and mating practices as anything having to do with genetics. Google the term "attractive woman" and see how many muscular, big, tall, women you see... few/none right?... Now google "attractive man" and see all the tall, muscle bound guys that come up. I'm sure you've heard the statistic that 70% of women consider a man under 6ft (1.82 meters) tall to be unacceptable as a mate. So we as a species self select for big males and small females. Its no wonder then that men are slightly larger on average. So mens' "greater strength" is an illusion.
 
I understand your point but its flawed. Men do not dominate because they are/were more suited to physical labour. Field hands don't run a plantation, the master does, and he's probably the physically weakest man on the property. Typically, the biggest strongest workers are the lowest on the totem pole. Men dominate the societies they do because men in those societies worked very early to set them up that way, through religion, law, tradition etc. It has nothing to do with "superior physical strength" or any merit-based reason of any kind.

Men don't even really have an edge physically, our "edge" is mostly due to size and/or muscle mass. A larger woman is generally stronger than a smaller man. Not to mention that women have better physical balance than men... Ever watch kids try balance beam for the first time? The girls are naturals, the boys are ludicrous up there *facepalm*:nope:

Men might be larger on average, but that is as much about culture and mating practices as anything having to do with genetics. Google the term "attractive woman" and see how many muscular, big, tall, women you see... few/none right?... Now google "attractive man" and see all the tall, muscle bound guys that come up. I'm sure you've heard the statistic that 70% of women consider a man under 6ft (1.82 meters) tall to be unacceptable as a mate. So we as a species self select for big males and small females. Its no wonder then that men are slightly larger on average. So mens' "greater strength" is an illusion.

You forget that things like hunting, law enforcement and military occupations are physically demanding as well. Among hunter-gatherers, men did the hunting. When women pushed to be trained for elite positions in the US Army, failure rates among them were significantly higher. So men often end up in roles that allow us to enforce stuff.

I however give you that physically demanding labour is indeed primarily a thing among the lower classes. Thus, male dominance is actually more pronounced among lower social classes. Early modern societies could already have (de-facto) female rulers, even when the society at large was strongly male dominated. A noblewoman had less handicaps against noblemen in casual social discourse than women who where the wives of labourers.
 
What chores can a 3-year-old do beyond "pick up your toys"? I will admit that this was about the extent of what my mother expected of me, since she figured I'd just break anything I touched or hurt myself. Then a few years later, she wondered why I hadn't magically absorbed the knowledge of how to do the things she hadn't let me do earlier.

Right now our daughter's daily chores involve feeding the dog, making her bed, cleaning her room, and putting her own dishes in the sink after each meal. She also willingly helps out with other things around the house as well, like helping my wife cook. Like I said, this kid loves to help out to the point she actually throws a tantrum if you don't let her help with the housework.


Presumably her father and uncle are not allowed to have contact with children. If they did, wouldn't they be in trouble?

Going to be kind of hard for the father to not have contact when they'd be living in the same house.


But I did wonder if you do, or will, give your daughter an allowance and if so, what she would have to do to earn it. I got an allowance during the years when my dad and I lived with his then-girlfriend, but that stopped when we moved in with my grandparents. They didn't believe in allowances, so any spending money I had as a teenager came from babysitting and working in the school library. I had chores around the house - dishwashing, vacuuming, mowing the lawn, dog walking, helping to shovel the snow, and taking out the garbage.

I would give her an allowance, but not a cash-based one. Basically, as long as she keeps up with her chores I would buy her anything she wants as long as the money is available. Trust me, this kid doesn't need an allowance because she gets enough free money from relatives. She's only three and has $400 dollars in a shoebox in her dresser. She also has an account in her name that my mother deposits money in every week that's already got a few thousand dollars in it.


So you see nothing wrong with lying to your wife. Wow. :rolleyes:

Not just my wife. I don't see a problem with lying to anyone as long as it serves a purpose. It has long been a belief of mine that the entirety of human civilization is based on lies and it would all come crashing down if everyone all of a sudden started being 100% honest with each other.

So she's not allowed to handle cash? Really? What if some purchase she wants to make is one where the business won't take a debit card (if the purchase is below the minimum amount some businesses require)? What if there's something that's really needed and she couldn't buy it because the store's debit card machine wasn't working?

Those are some really obscure and extremely unlikely scenarios. I don't really know how it is in Canada (you do live in Canada, right?), but it has been at least a decade since I have seen a business that has a minimum purchase limit for debit cards here in the US. And if the machine is down, then so what? If you live in a decently populated area (which we do) then there is going to be another business right down the road that has what you need and a working debit card machine.

Uh-huh. Like never having been married somehow disqualifies me from discussing topics to do with marriage. Naturally, the rest of you recuse yourselves from talking about women's issues because you're not female. Oh, wait...

I've had several decades of observing various marriages in my family and among friends and acquaintances. The most successful of them are those where both parties are honest with each other. My mother was divorced twice. My youngest aunt was divorced once. Another aunt went through several marriages. My dad never remarried after divorcing my mother, but he lived with a succession of girlfriends, and the last one lived in a trailer on our property (and made life hell for my grandmother and me for more years than I care to remember).

My grandparents, on the other hand, stayed married for 1 day shy of 52 years (my grandfather died the day before their 52nd anniversary). He and my grandmother had mutual respect and honesty. She hadn't worked at an outside job for several decades before he died, but he didn't have an "I give you a roof over your head and food on the table, so get busy with the cooking and cleaning and I won't trust you with the finances or even let you have cash" attitude. He didn't sneak around on her, and even if he was the one who actually made most of the major purchases, she at least had input into them, knew what was going on, and he expected her to be able to step in and handle things if he got sick or died (which is what happened).

I didn't take issue with you discussing the topic, I took issue with you attempting to pass your opinion off as fact.

And I don't care how many marriages within your family you observed because at the end of the day you are still on the outside looking in with absolutely no practical experience in the matter. Your sample size for your observations is also severely inadequate for you to state any of your conclusions about marriage in general in a manner that portrays them as any kind of factual certainty. All I ask is that you state your opinion as an opinion and not try to talk as if you are some sort of subject matter expert on marriage.
 
You forget that things like hunting, law enforcement and military occupations are physically demanding as well.
Again, this is missing the mark somewhat. Men are not more suited to hunt than women. Male lions don't hunt, the females do. Hunting is about stealth, patience, tactics, not size or strength. Men are not more suited to law enforcement than women. Law enforcement has nothing to do with size or strength. If you are talking about subduing/arresting a suspect who is resisting, that is about technique/training not size. Moreover, the primary weapon of law enforcement is back-up. People obey the police because they know "resistance is futile." If you escape/resist one cop more will come, and more, and more until you are overwhelmed, captured or killed. That threat of escalating back-up/forces is the key to law enforcement, not size or strength.

Men are the hunters and law enforcers because men want to be free to leave the home, and in control of society. That is how men set it up, but that does not mean that men are better suited to those tasks. They are not.

And I don't care how many marriages within your family you observed because at the end of the day you are still on the outside looking in with absolutely no practical experience in the matter.
This principle applies to all observers, which is why I stated earlier that it comes down to what you and your wife are comfortable with, not outsiders opinions about you relationships.

People come up with all kinds of opinions based on their "observances" of others relationships, but what people forming these opinions often forget is that what you observe, (regardless of how much "access" you think you have), is only the tip of the iceberg. You have no idea what goes on in their interactions in the middle of the night, under the sheets, in the bedroom, right before/after sex and generally when the couple is one-on-one. Your impression of anyone's relationship is based on an illusion. It is merely by-and-large what they want you to see. The real relationship is formed and defined privately.
 
It seems to be a tricky situation. And a good example of why I would totally refuse to have a housewife :p

I don't think that people who mock you about treating her as slave are honest : from what you wrote, you actually encouraged her to actually get a work and put herself out of her dependance, so it doesn't seem like you're keeping her in this situation (though, of course, we only have one side of the story).
That being said, I admit I'm more than a little weirded out by the way you describe your relationship. I'm myself pretty secretive, even sometimes a bit paranoid, and an absolute privacy freak, but even me am somewhat shocked by how much you seem to plan and hide things in her back. From your posts, you seem to be eyeing a foe, not your spouse. And I think it's kind of the root of the problem.

But to get back at the initial question : it depends how it's used.
I tend to agree that if you had an arrangement, and she's not willing to work for her part of the money, then you should have the final word on how money is spent.
But I tend to consider that it's not really adequate to have one supposedly equal spouse having to ask to buy things - that does feel a bit like treating a child. And even more, it feels pretty unhealthy to use money as leverage. Like, REALLY unhealthy. In fact, using leverage in a relationship, period, doesn't seem like a good idea, money just makes it... I don't know, somewhat "dirtier".

Using my own set of values (which are probably different, but well you asked for advice), I'd say this situation is simply unsustainable. You feel like she's trying to use you, and she may think you're trying to dominate her. A situation where one person is dependant on the other can only last, IMO, if both truly trust each other, and it's very obviously not the case anymore.

So my opinion would be that you push her to become financially independant. Pay for her studies if she needs them, encourage her to find a work, whatever is required, but help her to get in a position where she earns at least a nominal amount of money and as such pay for her share of things - and then you can do half the chores without feeling exploited.

Again, this is missing the mark somewhat. Men are not more suited to hunt than women. Male lions don't hunt, the females do. Hunting is about stealth, patience, tactics, not size or strength. Men are not more suited to law enforcement than women. Law enforcement has nothing to do with size or strength. If you are talking about subduing/arresting a suspect who is resisting, that is about technique/training not size. Moreover, the primary weapon of law enforcement is back-up. People obey the police because they know "resistance is futile." If you escape/resist one cop more will come, and more, and more until you are overwhelmed, captured or killed. That threat of escalating back-up/forces is the key to law enforcement, not size or strength.
This is going off-subject, on top of being mostly wrong. I think it would be better either to drop the subject, or to make another thread about it :p
 
I understand your point but its flawed. Men do not dominate because they are/were more suited to physical labour. Field hands don't run a plantation, the master does, and he's probably the physically weakest man on the property. Typically, the biggest strongest workers are the lowest on the totem pole. Men dominate the societies they do because men in those societies worked very early to set them up that way, through religion, law, tradition etc. It has nothing to do with "superior physical strength" or any merit-based reason of any kind.

Men don't even really have an edge physically, our "edge" is mostly due to size and/or muscle mass. A larger woman is generally stronger than a smaller man. Not to mention that women have better physical balance than men... Ever watch kids try balance beam for the first time? The girls are naturals, the boys are ludicrous up there *facepalm*:nope:

Men might be larger on average, but that is as much about culture and mating practices as anything having to do with genetics. Google the term "attractive woman" and see how many muscular, big, tall, women you see... few/none right?... Now google "attractive man" and see all the tall, muscle bound guys that come up. I'm sure you've heard the statistic that 70% of women consider a man under 6ft (1.82 meters) tall to be unacceptable as a mate. So we as a species self select for big males and small females. Its no wonder then that men are slightly larger on average. So mens' "greater strength" is an illusion.

That's not really the case, it's well-documented that men are significantly stronger than women given equal body mass.

And even if it wasn't, greater strength due to higher muscle mass isn't an illusion of any sort - within a single gender, people with greater muscle mass are stronger, that's how strength works.
 
That's not really the case, it's well-documented that men are significantly stronger than women given equal body mass.
It looks like you are misinterpreting my statement and then disagreeing with your own misinterpretation.:crazyeye: Obviously men are stronger, only if/when they have more muscle mass. That is exactly what I said.

A woman who has equal weight with a man but higher muscle percentage will be stronger than that man (as in able to lift heavier weights). Do you disagree with this??:confused:.
And even if it wasn't, greater strength due to higher muscle mass isn't an illusion of any sort - within a single gender, people with greater muscle mass are stronger, that's how strength works.
Again, you misinterpret, then disagree with yourself. I never said higher muscle mass=higher strength was an illusion.:nope: That is precisely my point!

Men are stronger only when they have higher muscle mass. Higher muscle mass is correlated to higher overall mass. In other words, bigger people tend to have more muscle mass than smaller people, and are therefore stronger. Men tend to be bigger than women. But this is only because we have made them so, through generations of socialization. If larger women and smaller men were the preferred mates, then women would generally be stronger than men.
This is going off-subject, on top of being mostly wrong. I think it would be better either to drop the subject, or to make another thread about it :p
You think?... OK... so you can drop whatever subject you want:yup: and/or start whatever thread you want, or deem appropriate :p
 
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