Movement limits in early eras

[<Nexus>]

One more idea...

I always thought that Logistics tech should also be involved in Movement Limits.
So what if Navigation wouldn't completely negate the effects of ML but turn it from a major hindrance into a small annoyance?

• If Terrain Damage is ON: the damage would be reduced from 25% to 2 or 5%
• If Terrain Damage is OFF: no more pushing back of units, but movement cost is increased by 1 outside the range.

And than Logistics would completely eliminate all effects.
Just an idea...

 

[Vokarya]

One more idea...

I always thought that Logistics tech should also be involved in Movement Limits.
So what if Navigation wouldn't completely negate the effects of ML but turn it from a major hindrance into a small annoyance?

• If Terrain Damage is ON: the damage would be reduced from 25% to 2 or 5%
• If Terrain Damage is OFF: no more pushing back of units, but movement cost is increased by 1 outside the range.

And than Logistics would completely eliminate all effects.
Just an idea...

Logistics is way too late to be meaningful; waiting until the tail end of the Industrial would be painful. I like ending the movement limits during the Renaissance. That's when you get world-circling sea expeditions and colonies on other continents.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

I'd do it a tad earlier to be honest.

From both a historical and balance standpoint what you really want to strive for is a gradual and logical progression of the scope of the game as the game marches on. And one that fits in nicely with existing game mechanics. And in part this is what you have already built the framework for.

In the early eras you are already rather limited as to how far you can go. Before you hit about medieval stuff stuff like stability and due to size and upkeep penalties really limit your expansion distance making exploration beyond that just gratuitous. Thus the game tends to naturally be restricted in scope during these eras. You might have managed to meet an empire that's on the opposite side of your continent by having your scouts wonder around for 50 turns through endless no mans land, but it's gratuitous because there is nothing you can do with that contact.
By the time you hit medieval though you already have the techs to trade with people along coastlines so long range trade becomes a thing making long range contacts reasonable. And at the same time you have the ships, the cavalry and the infrastructure to actually go and fight across much longer distances. Not to mention the empire size. So those Spain meets Russia sort of contacts start playing a genuine part in the game.

At the same time, from a balance standpoint pushing the limit removal down to the Renaissance would give you a long blank spot in the medieval period where you've got nothing to do even though by all other mechanics you should be able to, followed instantly by a sudden and overwhelming influx of new options in the era that would give you both inter and intra continental expansion. It would be much more balance friendly to instead divide those up between the two eras so as to produce a more gradual game progression.

So really you want to set things up to form something kind of like this:
Ancient - Set up and survive against barbarians and beasts
Classical - Early religions, early expansion, small localized empires interacting within small localized areas. Civs tend to interact in regional clusters the size of modern nations, with the clusters occasionally interacting via the very borders.
Medieval - The strongest empires in each cluster grow out to conquer or subjugate their neighbors and become big kingdoms vying for dominance over the continent.
Renaissance -These new continental powers start exploiting sea travel to seek riches and allies abroad in order to get an advantage over their neighbors.
Everything leading up to Future - As travel becomes easier and more accessible you get empires which start to dominate their home continents leading to titanic struggles culminating in a decisive war or two at the tail end of the modern era.
Future - Continent sized empires fighting each other for dominance over the world.

At least that's how I see it. So I would put the end of the land distance limit somewhere smack in the middle of the middle ages.

 

[Vokarya]

I wouldn't want to remove movement limits completely until the Renaissance. But I think there is a problem regarding the +1 naval movement for circumnavigating the world. There are three ways to get the circumnavigation bonus.

1. Trade enough maps with other players to stitch together a continuous world map. This requires all trade partners to have the Paper tech, and you still have to make contact with enough players. If there are parts of the map that no one can see, such as on a Pangaea map with a wide ocean around it, you have to skip to step 2.
   
2. Build ocean-going ships and circumnavigate the world manually. Without movement limits, this requires Optics tech and Caravels. Caravels are the first ship that can cross Ocean squares. Most have to wait until Astronomy.
   
3. Build Magellan's Expedition. This will reveal all unowned water tiles, and assuming there are enough water tiles, which is very likely around the poles, give the builder the circumnavigation bonus.

I'd prefer to have #2 be the best option for getting the circumnavigation bonus. The problem is that with Movement Limits on, #3 becomes more likely, because both #2 and #3 require Navigation. Either the lifting of limits has to be moved back, or Magellan's Expedition needs to be moved forward, or Magellan needs a different ability.

 

[<Nexus>]

Or could we have an alternative for Caravels? Either moving it earlier or have a new unit that is similar to Caravel just weaker?

 

[nionios]

I prefer the manual way so I'm for #2.

 

[Fozman]

Is there a way to allow a unit type to ignore movement limits? Give that to Caravel. Seems like the least intrusive option, if possible. Or...

So I would put the end of the land distance limit somewhere smack in the middle of the middle ages.

I also agree with this. The Mongol Empire spanned across most of Eurasia before the year 1250. A few decades later the Ninth Crusade traveled that entire distance as well. Honestly, as soon as you gain the ability to draw maps, you should be able to explore anywhere. I'd suggest lifting the limits at Cartography. Maybe even Optics, if you feel so inclined.

 

[HorseshoeHermit]

By the time you hit medieval though you already have the techs to trade with people along coastlines so long range trade becomes a thing making long range contacts reasonable. And at the same time you have the ships, the cavalry and the infrastructure to actually go and fight across much longer distances. Not to mention the empire size. So those Spain meets Russia sort of contacts start playing a genuine part in the game.

At the same time, from a balance standpoint pushing the limit removal down to the Renaissance would give you a long blank spot in the medieval period where you've got nothing to do even though by all other mechanics you should be able to, followed instantly by a sudden and overwhelming influx of new options in the era that would give you both inter and intra continental expansion. It would be much more balance friendly to instead divide those up between the two eras so as to produce a more gradual game progression.

This is a good argument.

I also agree with this. The Mongol Empire spanned across most of Eurasia before the year 1250. A few decades later the Ninth Crusade traveled that entire distance as well. Honestly, as soon as you gain the ability to draw maps, you should be able to explore anywhere. I'd suggest lifting the limits at Cartography.

This is persuasive reasoning.

I wouldn't want to remove movement limits completely until the Renaissance. But I think there is a problem regarding the +1 naval movement for circumnavigating the world. There are three ways to get the circumnavigation bonus.

1. Trade enough maps with other players to stitch together a continuous world map. This requires all trade partners to have the Paper tech, and you still have to make contact with enough players. If there are parts of the map that no one can see, such as on a Pangaea map with a wide ocean around it, you have to skip to step 2.
   
2. Build ocean-going ships and circumnavigate the world manually. Without movement limits, this requires Optics tech and Caravels. Caravels are the first ship that can cross Ocean squares. Most have to wait until Astronomy.
   
3. Build Magellan's Expedition. This will reveal all unowned water tiles, and assuming there are enough water tiles, which is very likely around the poles, give the builder the circumnavigation bonus.

I'd prefer to have #2 be the best option for getting the circumnavigation bonus. The problem is that with Movement Limits on, #3 becomes more likely, because both #2 and #3 require Navigation. Either the lifting of limits has to be moved back, or Magellan's Expedition needs to be moved forward, or Magellan needs a different ability.

This also concludes the same solution is needed.

A resolution has been reached, right?

 

[Vokarya]

Actually, as long as you are CONQUERING, then movement limits shouldn't be a problem. As you take and hold cities, those push the area that you can move in outwards. It's EXPLORING beyond borders that the movement limit option is meant to hinder.

So I'm not moving the final lifting of limits beyond the early Renaissance at best. Whenever I have an important element, I like to see it spaced out as widely as possible. So there are two spots where movement limits are increased; once in the early Classical at Alphabet and once in the early Medieval at Charters. Those two techs were picked for their relative lack of tricks.

 

[Fozman]

As you take and hold cities

But not if you raze them.

 

[<Nexus>]

But not if you raze them.

Than don't raze them.
Do not expect to feed your army in a distant location after destroying all possible bases.

 

[aggri1]

Hi. Great discussion and a really cool concept.

Could we perhaps have a summary of the current state of this mechanism, 45? Should include the two options (terrain damage on/off), mention of unit domain (ocean units have same distance limit or not as land units), unit class (?: settlers/diplomats/spies can go anywhere?), city loss, conquering & razing, detail about roads (it was mentioned that a road is a valid location, but I don't quite understand what this means), effects of forts (if any), unit exemptions (if any), effects of friendly (open borders) territory, relevant promotions (if any), and what the range actually is (incl. tech's which modify it). So we know every detail of how it works.

Regarding roads being valid (45 mentioned in post #25 that you can move along roads even outside the distance limit). If you have a bunch of workers, you can move them to the edge of your range limit; next turn, move them one tile outside your range limit and build a road (on flat land). Repeat and repeat as necessary, and you can build a road to anywhere, which allows your other units to go anywhere. Is this possible, or have I misunderstood something here? Can workers, who don't get damage, move outside freely anyway?

Regarding the ability of units to move 'one tile' (I presume you meant "for one turn's worth of movement points") outside the border: since sea units move faster (generally) than land units, they'll still be able to get further away before dying (or being teleported home), right?

Further ideas:
* Possible to have a World Wonder which modifies the range limit? Would be a cool trick for a WW, or even a National Wonder like the Courier thing which always seems a little underwhelming to me.

* Can the distance limit be changed independently for land and sea units with different technologies? Might be neat if sea units could stray further afield earlier than land units, which might help with the Magellan's Expedition problem.

* Would be super-neat if land units considered a nearby transport to be equivalent to a friendly city for distance-calculation purposes, but I suspect too heavy a workload for the computer... Although since there'd surely be few land units away from city-range, and as long as you only check for nearby boats AFTER cities, perhaps there'd be almost no penalty.

Thanks!
A.

 

[<Nexus>]

Regarding roads being valid (45 mentioned in post #25 that you can move along roads even outside the distance limit). If you have a bunch of workers, you can move them to the edge of your range limit; next turn, move them one tile outside your range limit and build a road (on flat land). Repeat and repeat as necessary, and you can build a road to anywhere, which allows your other units to go anywhere. Is this possible, or have I misunderstood something here? Can workers, who don't get damage, move outside freely anyway?

That seems to be a very possible exploit... if your Worker don't lose all it's movement when leaving the road. I'm not sure it's possible, though...

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Guys, everything has already been explained in previous posts. If Terrain Damage is on, all units who can get damage have the same limit, regardless of domain or promotions. So in this case, workers, settlers, spies and Great People are excluded and can roam freely. Of course it's risky at the start of the game, so I see no problem with it given that those are valuable units. If Terrain Damage is off, no unit can move beyond one tile away from the limit. If for some reason they are beyond that limit, for example if your closest city gets razed, your units are bounced back to the nearest valid plot. You can explore territory outside your limit only if the tile you're moving to belongs to another civ you are at war with or have open borders with, or if it's a road. In theory, you can build a road with a worker outside your limit and then move further along that road with other units, as the tile with road becomes a valid plot. I'm not sure if a Fort acts like a city but if it doesn't I might change that.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

My logic is that at the point where you reach the days of Marco Polo you should be able to manually do the same. There is historical precedent for a bustling trade with China at the time. And from a mechanical standpoint it would make sense as the Renaissance opens up oceans for you so medieval would open up the land. So I am with the others and say put the end of the movement limit at Cartography.

What I would do though is maybe set back selling contacts some. Right now you can buy contacts pretty much without any tech requirement. Maybe give that a requirement that's set in say the early medieval to spice things up.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

My logic is that at the point where you reach the days of Marco Polo you should be able to manually do the same. There is historical precedent for a bustling trade with China at the time. And from a mechanical standpoint it would make sense as the Renaissance opens up oceans for you so medieval would open up the land. So I am with the others and say put the end of the movement limit at Cartography.

What I would do though is maybe set back selling contacts some. Right now you can buy contacts pretty much without any tech requirement. Maybe give that a requirement that's set in say the early medieval to spice things up.

Not sure. Right now you already CAN reach any square of the continent you are on right after discovering The Wheel: just build a route and you're free to roam. And selling contacts only allows you to exchange techs if you don't have a route to that civ.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Not sure. Right now you already CAN reach any square of the continent you are on right after discovering The Wheel: just build a route and you're free to roam.

Yea but like that's a concentrated effort on part of you. And I really don't think you should have to do that by the time you hit the period.

And selling contacts only allows you to exchange techs if you don't have a route to that civ.

I am not talking about exchanging techs but about exchanging contacts it self. Basically in my last game I did not need to explore much at all because I could just buy contacts to half the world before I hit medieval. And Contact + Embassy = you know pretty much where everyone is and what they are doing.

 

[Arakhor]

Yea but like that's a concentrated effort on part of you. And I really don't think you should have to do that by the time you hit the period.

Marco Polo would have been following the Silk Road, not just randomly wandering in the Asian wilderness.

 

[<Nexus>]

Maybe at some point (Cartography?) coastal tiles could also work the same as roads, so you can explore your whole continent, but not the new world.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

How many mapscripts actually have a new world to explore though? Most of them just spread people out across all continents equally. And even if not, there are ways to undo that such as the option to let barbarian cities turn into civs.

And anyway, by the time you get to the new world you should have optics already.