New BETA Version - 4.4.2 (December 31, 2023)

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I did note a few other changes or oddities.

The AI have gotten a bit weird with their religions, not sure but why is the Celtic trying to spread their religion with missionaries when their religion never have any external push.

While the new espionage system seems interesting. It does seem to be even more set-and-forget then previously. Also the interaction with the city-state quests is horrible since you now need to gain all those spy points, they might scale with game speed but on deity/marathon you need 3000 spy-points to do an mission/action. So to complete the normal cs quests of around 3 actions that is a lot of points and time to get going. Previously you could get that done a lot quicker.

Do spies even level up anymore? They seem to be stuck at 1 pip forever, no matter the amount of missions I do with them.
 
looorg said:
The AI have gotten a bit weird with their religions, not sure but why is the Celtic trying to spread their religion with missionaries when their religion never have any external push.
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They need some way to reform, they simply cannot hit a reformation wonder if they don't do this.
 
Enginseer said:
They need some way to reform, they simply cannot hit a reformation wonder if they don't do this.
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Sure. But it's a real uphill battle since their own cities with their religion doesn't have external pressure it becomes a bit weird. They are burning a lot of faith, which they usually have thanks to the special UU, but it never really amounts to much. They probably need some other Celtic specific mechanic to push reformation then. Or just grow more, easier said then done. I don't think their missionary spamming is helping them. They could be spending it on better things.

The other AI civs that get the celtic relgion this way have very low pressure to, like +2 or +3 or something. So it doesn't really reach any kind of critical mass of pressure. If anything getting this from the Celts is basically a curse since it might override your pantheon for nothing. As you can't get the special bonuses that are celtic, as in you don't get the celtic pantheon. You will only get the the other things. So it will be a really sub-par religion.
 
looorg said:
The other AI civs that get the celtic relgion this way have very low pressure to, like +2 or +3 or something. So it doesn't really reach any kind of critical mass of pressure. If anything getting this from the Celts is basically a curse since it might override your pantheon for nothing. As you can't get the special bonuses that are celtic, as in you don't get the celtic pantheon. You will only get the the other things. So it will be a really sub-par religion.
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Which is good for the Celts no? By hurting its neighbours.

Do report if they ever try to spread to founders.
looorg said:
While the new espionage system seems interesting. It does seem to be even more set-and-forget then previously. Also the interaction with the city-state quests is horrible since you now need to gain all those spy points, they might scale with game speed but on deity/marathon you need 3000 spy-points to do an mission/action. So to complete the normal cs quests of around 3 actions that is a lot of points and time to get going. Previously you could get that done a lot quicker.
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Only the Steal Tech mission have scaling cost. You can just do the others.
looorg said:
Do spies even level up anymore? They seem to be stuck at 1 pip forever, no matter the amount of missions I do with them.
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You can see their XP on the interface.
 
azum4roll said:
Which is good for the Celts no? By hurting its neighbours.

Do report if they ever try to spread to founders.

Only the Steal Tech mission have scaling cost. You can just do the others.

You can see their XP on the interface.
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Is it good for the celts tho? It's a minor nuisance for their neighbors at best. He won't really gain much since it's so easy to remove it since will just be the yield but you'll never get any pressure, or any to talk about if you think that +2 or +3 is pressure.

That might be the case but running a mission on marathon/deity is 3000 spy points. My current game is in turn 444 (we are starting renessance; most everyone have about 33 techs) ; my best spy so far have a total accumulation of 1486 network points, he is gaining +22 spy network points per turn so in about 70ish turns or so in around turn 510 he might run a mission and then it's back to waiting for another 140ish turns. So very set and forget. But they won't be doing any missions anytime soon. Previously you could resolve those quests quite fast but just targetting your spy army towards the AI and then do some of the easier once. He also have 71/300 xp so it's not that he is about to level anytime soon. So the spies do come a bit of set and forget and then every now and then you get a notification that you have gained a level, in some other games I know you get the notification when you have 3000 spy network points and can do something. But as this related to the CS quest, that is now probably the slowest and least useful quest of the bunch. I can't think of a slower or worse one as of this moment.

This is the default cost: 3000 NP (steal great work, sabotage, pilfer relics, kidnap, steal tresury) and 4500 NP (steal tech, radicalize, arm, target defence). All I'm saying is really that it's a lot slower then the previous system and it syncs badly with the CS quests. I have not done any missions as of yet so costs have not been increased or altered. This is just if it scales with difficulty and gaming speed what is the default value. I assume it does and it's not 3000 NP for standard speed cause then you would do like one mission or two and the game would be over by length. So if one wants to be more interactive I guess the cost shouldn't scale with game speed.
 
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looorg said:
That might be the case but running a mission on marathon/deity is 3000 spy points. My current game is in turn 444 (we are starting renessance; most everyone have about 33 techs) ; my best spy so far have a total accumulation of 1486 network points, he is gaining +22 spy network points per turn so in about 70ish turns or so in around turn 510 he might run a mission and then it's back to waiting for another 140ish turns. So very set and forget. But they won't be doing any missions anytime soon. Previously you could resolve those quests quite fast but just targetting your spy army towards the AI and then do some of the easier once. He also have 71/300 xp so it's not that he is about to level anytime soon. So the spies do come a bit of set and forget and then every now and then you get a notification that you have gained a level, in some other games I know you get the notification when you have 3000 spy network points and can do something. But as this related to the CS quest, that is now probably the slowest and least useful quest of the bunch. I can't think of a slower or worse one as of this moment.
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There are (supposed to be) a lot of 1000 NP missions that don't scale. @axatin please fix.
XP to level up does scale with game speed.

looorg said:
Is it good for the celts tho? It's a minor nuisance for their neighbors at best. He won't really gain much since it's so easy to remove it since will just be the yield but you'll never get any pressure, or any to talk about if you think that +2 or +3 is pressure.
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It is good for them until they can reform. Civs that have reformed usually don't spread further unless they have high religious flavour.
 
azum4roll said:
There are (supposed to be) a lot of 1000 NP missions that don't scale. @axatin please fix.
XP to level up does scale with game speed.


It is good for them until they can reform. Civs that have reformed usually don't spread further unless they have high religious flavour.
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Interesting. So they are not supposed to scale with speed then. It's a fairly common thing I find that things scale with speed. When I find that they shouldn't. Running at a longer/slower speed isn't cause you like to wait longer. It's due to you wanting to do more with them. Not waiting. So they should really cost the same amount, and possibly give the same rewards as per standard speed. It's about being relevant for longer.

When I meant is it good for the Celts I was more thinking it's bad for them faith wise. They could spend that faith on more useful things. Cause they are never, I would say, going to reach reformation by spreading a religion without pressure. They would be strategically better off just picking zealotry and spamming out units and conquer cities that they then control instead. Which has better internal religious pressure. Or just doing anything else with them. It's a bad faith investment in some regard.So it's not that I don't understand why, it's that it's a bad investment with little to no output for them.
 
It seems to me that spys are currently at their best when put to city states. I dont have to do missions or send too much diplomatic units and I hold most of the city states as my allies.
 
EricfromCuse said:
You definitely need to increase the computer civs to settle more cities in open areas. You guys are doing a great job,TY
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It's weird how this bug keeps lingering in both civ v and vi.... the later the game gets the less likely the AI is to build settlers nvm use them to settle. The AI basically randomly declares war as it's main method of economic expansion... which explains how bizarrely warmongering it becomes even when it knows it's opponent is stronger.
 
The value of a new city steadily decreases throughout the game. It may not always be worth settling one.
 
the current version does not have any game breaking bugs afaik; just some minor issues like India prophets and some CP only bugs.
 
Looking forward to testing out new ai settling logic. Its very strange. In previous patches I didnt notice any issues. The most recent patch they are expanding better but still not super well. Also some weird wonky settling as well where you get a civ who expands too much and in weird locations like deep into another civs territory.

Also we def need that war wariness back. Feels very off without it.
 
azum4roll said:
I can't replicate the "civs starting too close to each other" issue.

If anyone encounters it on Communitu_79a, Continents, Pangaea, Oval, Fractal, Archipelago, or any "for VP" maps, please share screenshots, mod list and map settings.

Also, no More Wonders or any mod that modifies AssignStartingPlots.lua, please.
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CIV5VOX-CLOSECAPITALS.jpg

Think it was six tiles between capitals. Chinese capital is under that one white tile. It was one tile closer I moved one tile to be between the lake and the sea. No weird assignstartingplot mods. Normal map. Random seas, width, terrain and sparse resources. Marathon, Deity. Huge map. From what I can tell every single civ in the game was/is on the bottom landmass, not sure if there is a northern one. There are islands out there. I have not looked yet. So human+12+the default number of city states or whatever the default is/are again.It does seem like it tries to cram everything into the main continent, there should be another but I can't reach it yet but there are city-state quests to investigate out in the northern fogs so there must be some land out there. But nobody but the barbarians and a few city-states will live there so I'm thinking the map was large land mass to the south and archipelago type at the north.


beijing is 9 tiles from rome

goa is 11 tiles from honolulu
goa is 12 from berlin
goa is 8 tiles from cusco

cusco is 10 tiles from addis ababa

venice is 11 tiles from moscow
venice is 10 tiles from edinburgh

paris is 12 tiles from marrakech
marrakech is 12 tiles from rome

They do seem to be very tightly packed in this one at least. I think the 10-12 range is normal. But the less then 10 range is very close, that is at most one city between them. 6 tiles away is very VERY close. Then there is the sprinkle of city-states to add in to.
 
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looorg said:
View attachment 682799

Think it was six tiles between capitals. Chinese capital is under that one white tile. It was one tile closer I moved one tile to be between the lake and the sea. No weird assignstartingplot mods. Normal map. Random seas, width, terrain and sparse resources. Marathon, Deity. Huge map. From what I can tell every single civ in the game was/is on the bottom landmass, not sure if there is a northern one. There are islands out there. I have not looked yet. So human+12+the default number of city states or whatever the default is/are again.It does seem like it tries to cram everything into the main continent, there should be another but I can't reach it yet but there are city-state quests to investigate out in the northern fogs so there must be some land out there. But nobody but the barbarians and a few city-states will live there so I'm thinking the map was large land mass to the south and archipelago type at the north.


beijing is 9 tiles from rome

goa is 11 tiles from honolulu
goa is 12 from berlin
goa is 8 tiles from cusco

cusco is 10 tiles from addis ababa

venice is 11 tiles from moscow
venice is 10 tiles from edinburgh

paris is 12 tiles from marrakech
marrakech is 12 tiles from rome

They do seem to be very tightly packed in this one at least. I think the 10-12 range is normal. But the less then 10 range is very close, that is at most one city between them. 6 tiles away is very VERY close. Then there is the sprinkle of city-states to add in to.
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I have yet to experience this. And ive probably reloaded maps a couple hundred times on hemispheres and continents with this recent patch.
 
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