New Beta Version - February 1st (2/1)

[ryanmusante]

Okay. I should turn off my windows defender, then.

Switch to Linux. Once you go penguin, you never go back!

 

[Stalker0]

Median values aren’t terribly affected by difficulty.

G,

To me this statement says that if I'm turn 150 into a game lets say, whether it was a game of all chieftain AIs, or all diety AIs....the amount of yields that I would need to keep a city happy would be roughly the same? That...does not seem right to me.

I think its a good time to ask, since I still don't understand the happy system all that well. Let me take a crack at my understanding of it and you can correct me.

1) A city gets a Per Pop yield requirement based on the global median. For this example: Lets say its 2.5 culture per pop.

One question I have, how are the cities grouped for the median? Is every city lumped together. Are capitals only compared to other capitals? Is every size 20 city only compared to other size 20 cities?

2) That requirement is then modifier by a Global Need adjustment. The adjustment is based off of:

a) The size of the city (bigger = higher modifier)
b) Number of technologies you have (more = higher modifier)
c) Buildings/Policies that reduce the modifier.
d) Capitals get a need bump, puppets a need reduction

For the example, we have a 30% boredom modifier. So we are now at 3.25 culture per pop.

3) The city's static yields (not instant yields) are divided by the population. This number is compared to the need.

Example: We have a size 10 city producing 25 culture. It is producing 2.5 culture per pop. It is failing to meet .75 culture per pop.

4) The final deficit determines how unhappy you are. Here I have another question, how much deficit is needed to generate 1 unhappy vs 2 vs 3 etc etc? Is it linear, exponential?

5) Your unhappiness is then capped at your city's population. So a level 5 city cannot have 6 unhappiness, only 5 at the absolute most.

Question here: Does specialist unhappiness add on top of this, or is that factor in as well. So crazy sake of argument, level 3 city with 3 unhappy. If I made all of them specialists, would it still be 3 unhappy or 4 (assuming the yield changes didn't adjust unhappiness of course)

 

[Gazebo]

G,

To me this statement says that if I'm turn 150 into a game lets say, whether it was a game of all chieftain AIs, or all diety AIs....the amount of yields that I would need to keep a city happy would be roughly the same? That...does not seem right to me.

I think its a good time to ask, since I still don't understand the happy system all that well. Let me take a crack at my understanding of it and you can correct me.

1) A city gets a Per Pop yield requirement based on the global median. For this example: Lets say its 2.5 culture per pop.

One question I have, how are the cities grouped for the median? Is every city lumped together. Are capitals only compared to other capitals? Is every size 20 city only compared to other size 20 cities?

2) That requirement is then modifier by a Global Need adjustment. The adjustment is based off of:

a) The size of the city (bigger = higher modifier)
b) Number of technologies you have (more = higher modifier)
c) Buildings/Policies that reduce the modifier.
d) Capitals get a need bump, puppets a need reduction

For the example, we have a 30% boredom modifier. So we are now at 3.25 culture per pop.

3) The city's static yields (not instant yields) are divided by the population. This number is compared to the need.

Example: We have a size 10 city producing 25 culture. It is producing 2.5 culture per pop. It is failing to meet .75 culture per pop.

4) The final deficit determines how unhappy you are. Here I have another question, how much deficit is needed to generate 1 unhappy vs 2 vs 3 etc etc? Is it linear, exponential?

5) Your unhappiness is then capped at your city's population. So a level 5 city cannot have 6 unhappiness, only 5 at the absolute most.

Question here: Does specialist unhappiness add on top of this, or is that factor in as well. So crazy sake of argument, level 3 city with 3 unhappy. If I made all of them specialists, would it still be 3 unhappy or 4 (assuming the yield changes didn't adjust unhappiness of course)

My point re: medians is that Deity players are going to be pushing/pulling the median versus Deity AI at the same rate as Warlord players re: Warlord AIs (assuming you chose a difficulty 'at your level). If you find yourself at the extreme of the spectrum either way, you're batting too high/low for your skill level. In general, though, deviation from the standard median is actually pretty low (and it doesn't have to be that far off to cause a bit of unhappiness here and there).

The system is a wee bit complex, sure, but you've got roughly the right idea.

1. Yes. There's no grouping - it's truly a median of all cities, excluding minors (as they have lots of weird rules that make them ineligible).
2.

a. Yes.
b. Yes.
c. Yes.
d. Yes.

Re: example, the modifier is applied prior to the division by number of citizens, not before.

3. Yes.

4. Yes. It's linear. It's currently 1 unhappy per .50 deviation.
5. Yes.

Specialists add on top of this, as specialist unhappiness is only calculated at the player level (for whatever reason, Firaxis).

G

 

[Edaka]

Good to see an old face around here.

G

I've been lurking and skulking the whole time But hey, I must say that I'm thoroughly impressed and humbled by the consistency of the development of the project. It's simply amazing considering the presumably typical human on and off nature when it comes down to hobbies and the like, but I suppose what we have here has transcended beyond that long time ago. Holy crap, Gazebo, I've now seen you obtain a Ph.D (or perhaps it was some other important paper that you did, but bear with me, I feel like an exaggeration would be appropriate anyway), become a real life father, and still have this baby (so it's two now?) going for more than three years now, sometimes posting updates while being away from home on vacation. Wow. The fact that now that Civ 6 is out and this community is still thriving and attracting new users and contributors (currently 19 and counting on Github) goes to show just how strong it is.

I've already made posts of appreciation before, so this one won't be here because it was due - I just really am sincerely amazed.

 

[Gazebo]

I've been lurking and skulking the whole time But hey, I must say that I'm thoroughly impressed and humbled by the consistency of the development of the project. It's simply amazing considering the presumably typical human on and off nature when it comes down to hobbies and the like, but I suppose what we have here has transcended beyond that long time ago. Holy crap, Gazebo, I've now seen you obtain a Ph.D (or perhaps it was some other important paper that you did, but bear with me, I feel like an exaggeration would be appropriate anyway), become a real life father, and still have this baby (so it's two now?) going for more than three years now, sometimes posting updates while being away from home on vacation. Wow. The fact that now that Civ 6 is out and this community is still thriving and attracting new users and contributors (currently 19 and counting on Github) goes to show just how strong it is.

I've already made posts of appreciation before, so this one won't be here because it was due - I just really am sincerely amazed.

Thanks! It's been a labor of love.

G

 

[IcyAngel]

n=1, but Elizabeth decided to end our Declaration of Friendship... and on the next turn proposed a DoF again!

Passive-aggressive much?!

 

[Gazebo]

n=1, but Elizabeth decided to end our Declaration of Friendship... and on the next turn proposed a DoF again!

Passive-aggressive much?!

Lol. Watch out for deceptive. She should be more subtle.

G

 

[Aldebaran1997]

Switch to Linux. Once you go penguin, you never go back!

I really like Linux, but compatibility always makes me back to windows.
Which Linux would you recommend, btw?

 

[ryanmusante]

I really like Linux, but compatibility always makes me back to windows.
Which Linux would you recommend, btw?

Well, I recommend anything that is the most comfortable for you. Ubuntu is a good place to begin. But, windows gaming is surely going to easier within it's native environment. I started by playing civ 5 (linux) and would have stayed with it if not for the fact that it is incompatible with DLL mods. And, I can't live with vanilla.

 

[Randomsheep]

@Gazebo

Is there any chance you could share in laymans terms what was causing the barb freezing bug?

I had experienced it a couple of times and was following the github with interest but missed the ending.

Thanks for the work.

 

[pza]

I just "finished" a game with brazil where i was clearly influential with all of the other remaining civs. in the end i popped an artist for GA to trigger the UA and ended up with 3-4k tourism above what i needed for victory. but still, even after two more turns, no victory was achieved, game continued. yes, i double checked - victory condition culture victory was enabled. am i missing something?

 

[Gothic_Empire]

I just "finished" a game with brazil where i was clearly influential with all of the other remaining civs. in the end i popped an artist for GA to trigger the UA and ended up with 3-4k tourism above what i needed for victory. but still, even after two more turns, no victory was achieved, game continued. yes, i double checked - victory condition culture victory was enabled. am i missing something?

I think you need an ideology to win a cultural victory.

 

[tu_79]

Okay. I should turn off my windows defender, then.

He said he is not contagious. He said nothing about the installer. For what we know, he could be an AI disguised as a teacher, and this could be his time to spread the virus...

 

[tu_79]

I really like Linux, but compatibility always makes me back to windows.
Which Linux would you recommend, btw?

After working with lots of distros, I'm currently recommending Manjaro.

Debian/Ubuntu/Mint is the same beast with different skins, works perfectly and have good compatibility. Ubuntu has made a place in terms of compatibility and it's very user friendly, so that's the default option for newcomers, along Mint.
Red Hat/ Suse are fine options too, they are supported by big companies, so that's what they use in the universities. They also have their testing and free versions, OpenSUSE / CentOS, where they try new stuff, but it's not recommended in productive environments.

What you need to understand about GNU/Linux, it's that the operating system is the same for all distributions, usually called the 'core'. Then you add a few programs: a file browser, a window manager, a notepad, a net manager, and you get a working Desktop Environment. There are a few fully integrated Desktop Environments (GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Unity). If you install a linux distribution and you dislike the Desktop Environment it delivers, you can easily install another one (but it might not be customized for this distribution == ugly). And then there are the rest of the applications you may install, like an office suite, a game, or an internet browser.

They are called distributions because they deliver those programs from a curated server, the same as you install applications from an app store in mobile phones. (You can install stuff from other sources, but it may contain viruses or other malware). So, such distributions need to maintain the programs they are delivering, to make sure they are all working and compatible. If they update the programs very often, there can be compatibility and stability issues, that's why most distributions have a release cicle. 6 months in the case of Ubuntu, 3 years in the case of Debian. Such distributions are very solid, but you need to upgrade the whole distro from time to time, because very old releases are no longer supported.

Then there are some distributions that follow a rolling release rule. As soon as there is a new version of a program, it's available in their repositories. Debian Testing and Arch go this path, but it makes the system unstable sometimes. And here is why I recommend Manjaro: it offers applications from Arch, already tested during a few days by the Arch community, in a 'delayed' rolling release model. There can be some unstability very rarely, but critical errors are usually found by Arch people first. And your programs are almost always the lattest version (but you can set some programs to not upgrade, if you prefer it more stable).

Actually, the biggest reason I'm installing Manjaro in all my relatives computers is a bit selfish. I don't need to go periodically to their houses to do any maintenance. If I install Windows to them, my relatives install junk, and all kind of malware in no time, despite any antivirus program. If I install Ubuntu, I need to go and upgrade it myself. If I install Debian, when a program is no longer supported (read Youtube support in older net browsers), then my assistance is required again. With Manjaro I had no such problems. I set a routine to update periodically and that's all (well, I had just one issue in the last couple of years where the graphical updater misbehaved).

I think you can make them all work with steam, and there's a MS windows emulator (Wine) you can use to try to run windows XP/7 stuff. I believe even VP can work, but I have a dedicated computer with Windows only for games, so I haven't tested it. Ryanmusante might know better.

 

[Gazebo]

@Gazebo

Is there any chance you could share in laymans terms what was causing the barb freezing bug?

I had experienced it a couple of times and was following the github with interest but missed the ending.

Thanks for the work.

Code I added for JFD. Lua hook for nonstandard minor civ yields.

 

[Gazebo]

He said he is not contagious. He said nothing about the installer. For what we know, he could be an AI disguised as a teacher, and this could be his time to spread the virus...

This is version 3.2.1...

 

[Txurce]

There's been a lot of talk about happiness, and some people have noticed a definite boom in the AI's ability to gain culture vs that of the human. Dealing with either would help with the other, but I think the recent AI culture performance is more of a direct problem. In my current game, with 6 guilds, pertinent amphitheaters, all arenas, and a successful global archeological raid, plus second in Wonders, my 12-city Progress empire is 5 policies behind the leader, and 3 behind two others by the time I reached ideologies. This has never happened to me before in an otherwise successful game.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Honestly, I can't really discuss this with you if that's going to be your line of reasoning. If you are being beaten by every civ in your game to all buildings/wonders/policies/techs...you're out of your league.
Also, remember that the Median is the middlest number in the set, not the average number - that's why it doesn't violently fluctuate all that much.

G

Iam not beaten by techs or policies. In both cases I am the Leader.
I get war declaration by poland and kelts at same time, additionally 2 CS bordering me declared war too. Poland and Kelts both plundered a lot of my land, but I kicked them all out of my land while I faced rebel spaws and had a unhappiness up to -56.
Nearly all my production in the war went into treshold related buildings to get the control over the unhappiness problem.
I was able to make peace with both and get back to -12 unhappiness, poland declared war again against me after only 14 turns of peace.
I had entirely eliminated their navy and their land units retreated from my land. But only 14 turns later, the 4 city 75 pop poland empire had 11 modern ships and army again like they had at start of previos war.
I simply get outproduced by the AI handicap modifiers. Its stupid. Its boring. But it is as it is.
Emperor difficulty and upwards dont look very balanced for me in conditions of Victory types. I would really wonder if someone is able to play deity in peaceful mode and win by non-domination victory.
Would be really nice to see a photo journal from someone winning deity in peace mode. Anyone accept the challenge?

There's been a lot of talk about happiness, and some people have noticed a definite boom in the AI's ability to gain culture vs that of the human. Dealing with either would help with the other, but I think the recent AI culture performance is more of a direct problem. In my current game, with 6 guilds, pertinent amphitheaters, all arenas, and a successful global archeological raid, plus second in Wonders, my 12-city Progress empire is 5 policies behind the leader, and 3 behind two others by the time I reached ideologies. This has never happened to me before in an otherwise successful game.

Which difficulty do you play?
Have you spies in enemy cities?
Can you confirm enemy cities with all buildings and culture/science progress in work?
Till yet the AI had only production benefits, but now they use their hammer advantage to build everything and then switch to culture/science, outperforming even efficient human ways to play.

 

[Gazebo]

Iam not beaten by techs or policies. In both cases I am the Leader.
I get war declaration by poland and kelts at same time, additionally 2 CS bordering me declared war too. Poland and Kelts both plundered a lot of my land, but I kicked them all out of my land while I faced rebel spaws and had a unhappiness up to -56.
Nearly all my production in the war went into treshold related buildings to get the control over the unhappiness problem.
I was able to make peace with both and get back to -12 unhappiness, poland declared war again against me after only 14 turns of peace.
I had entirely eliminated their navy and their land units retreated from my land. But only 14 turns later, the 4 city 75 pop poland empire had 11 modern ships and army again like they had at start of previos war.
I simply get outproduced by the AI handicap modifiers. Its stupid. Its boring. But it is as it is.
Emperor difficulty and upwards dont look very balanced for me in conditions of Victory types. I would really wonder if someone is able to play deity in peaceful mode and win by non-domination victory.
Would be really nice to see a photo journal from someone winning deity in peace mode. Anyone accept the challenge?


Which difficulty do you play?
Have you spies in enemy cities?
Can you confirm enemy cities with all buildings and culture/science progress in work?
Till yet the AI had only production benefits, but now they use their hammer advantage to build everything and then switch to culture/science, outperforming even efficient human ways to play.

Your last point is incorrect. There was ONE version with a bug that led to the AI not building culture buildings, and it was hotfixed immediately.

G

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Your last point is incorrect. There was ONE version with a bug that led to the AI not building culture buildings, and it was hotfixed immediately.

G

Which last point?
Can you confirm, the bug was only in the ONE version? Ive watched over several versions, conquered and puppeted cities were consequently ignoring the easiest buildings like monument or shrines. And as I remember correctly, the Puppet AI use the same routine as the normal AI.