New Beta Version - January 26th (1-26)

[Mad Madigan]

Playing a game as Spain and got the 2nd religion. First founder took Cooperation so Mastery was available, but I really, really wanted Cooperation. The AI doesn't always take Mastery as the first follower belief, but they will take whatever it is that you wanted most almost without fail.

 

[Ziad]

I can corroborate (from empirical observations) the claim that Mastery is the AI's first choice if it's available. The AI has picked it pretty consistently since the buff. Even savescumming didn't save me when I tried like 4 times in a row in one game (with random seed enabled ofc). I was playing Korea so I REALLY wanted it. Alas the AI didn't budge (although it did change the founder).

Maybe it's just being rightfully evaluated highly by the AI so they go for it. That's fine. Makes them more human anyway.

 

[ModsFan]

Byzantium's "select a civ" info still says -25% Faith purchase costs, instead of -15%

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Dude. YOU don’t need logs. I do. Also if you think it is a bug send it to github.

G

Okok, I will activate and send you logs next time.
And I dont think, its a bug, more the AI is calculating mastery as high priority belief, cause its pretty strong (for them, if I use spies on enemy capitols, they are working nearly all time all specialist slots).
Gazebo, do you think there should be first, second and third rank beliefs or should they be all have the same strenght? If you want to have equal beliefs, then I think you should bowl Mastery and buff the pure-yield beliefs.

 

[Moi Magnus]

Okok, I will activate and send you logs next time.
And I dont think, its a bug, more the AI is calculating mastery as high priority belief, cause its pretty strong (for them, if I use spies on enemy capitols, they are working nearly all time all specialist slots).
Gazebo, do you think there should be first, second and third rank beliefs or should they be all have the same strenght? If you want to have equal beliefs, then I think you should bowl Mastery and buff the pure-yield beliefs.

The reason why the logs are usefull is that it gives "how much th AI prefered mastery to the other".
If every times mastery as a valuation far stronger than the other, then there is a problem either in the balance, either in the evaluation methods.

If mastery win by little in most cases, it just mean that the balance between belief is not perfect but is still reasonnable.

 

[glider1]

Picking mastery "always" is an unsolvable problem of this game.

The better the AI gets, the more aware it becomes of tiny benefits of one choice over another and will pick it. The problem gets worse not better if you give the AI a memory. We are playing 7 AI's not one so we have a 1-in-8 chance of getting the best option and the AI will have a 7-in-8 chance of getting it. It is unfair by design that is why Firaxis are forced to build dumb AI's not because they want to save money but because if they didn't, civ played against the AI would be busted.

Imagine when Google's alphazero neural supercomputer gets a hold of Civ games. It will find that many exploits in best strategy we will rage quit every game.

That could be the real reason the community has been focusing on game balance issues because the AI is getting better at playing the game. It becomes a vicious self defeating problem of this type of game design. Designers have to make sure the AI and human is not too smart to exploit imbalances.

 

[IcyAngel]

It is unfair by design that is why Firaxis are forced to build dumb AI's not because they want to save money but because if they didn't, civ played against the AI would be busted.

Oh, trust me! Firaxis doesn't create a garbage AI on purpose.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

The reason why the logs are usefull is that it gives "how much th AI prefered mastery to the other".
If every times mastery as a valuation far stronger than the other, then there is a problem either in the balance, either in the evaluation methods.

If mastery win by little in most cases, it just mean that the balance between belief is not perfect but is still reasonnable.

"In most cases" = in all of my games so far, I know math, statistics and dont need any log to say, something is wrong if mastery is everytime picked and others completly ignored. Someone said, religion is a race and its ok if not every belief is as strong as the others. But we are trying to make every civ as strong as the others, every pantheon as stron as the others, every social policy (in its tier) as strong as the others. I cant believe, we dont want the same balance in beliefs.

Btw. the scalers from enhancer beliefs are also net very good balanced. The one enhancer that gives 10 of some yields with every new era and city is kinda crap. With holy law i get everytime 4 of some yields for every time I unlock a social policy and follower. I can unlock more than 2 or 3 times a social policy per era, and even with only one time, its enough to have 2.5 follower in a city to get more yields than the city based enhancers. And having one less follower than an other competitor completly negates all my effort if I have a city based scaler.

 

[ryanmusante]

"In most cases" = in all of my games so far, I know math, statistics and dont need any log to say, something is wrong if mastery is everytime picked and others completly ignored.

But, without compiled data from the logs (with your particular game, individual settings, AI players) there is nothing to read. Troubleshooting will be a shot in the dark without something concrete to show.

 

[Deadstarre]

scalers from enhancer beliefs are also net very good balanced. The one enhancer that gives 10 of some yields with every new era and city is kinda crap. With holy law i get everytime 4 of some yields for every time I unlock a social policy and follower.

this comment goes here ---> https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/tuning-simple-number-tweaks.627469/

 

[Questdog]

Why is the option "Units Awake in Danger" off by default? Is there some problem it causes? It is something I like to have on.

 

[tu_79]

Why is the option "Units Awake in Danger" off by default? Is there some problem it causes? It is something I like to have on.

Default?

If you press space key unit does nothing for the rest of the turn.
If you press F, it fortifies, so extra defense for the next turn (not this one).
If you press A, unit does the same as fortifying, but the turn after it spots an enemy it awakes (loses fortified status, but you may use your unit).
If being in fortified mode, you suffer damage, your unit awakes too, but I think it doesn't lose fortified status in this case.

 

[Questdog]

Default?

If you press space key unit does nothing for the rest of the turn.
If you press F, it fortifies, so extra defense for the next turn (not this one).
If you press A, unit does the same as fortifying, but the turn after it spots an enemy it awakes (loses fortified status, but you may use your unit).
If being in fortified mode, you suffer damage, your unit awakes too, but I think it doesn't lose fortified status in this case.

The "Units Awake in Danger" option allows units healing ('H') to awake if they spot an enemy. Without this they will just sit there and take damage until the Heal order is manually remanded.

 

[tu_79]

The "Units Awake in Danger" option allows units healing ('H') to awake if they spot an enemy. Without this they will just sit there and take damage until the Heal order is manually remanded.

I think they only wake when they are hit, not just by spotting enemy units. And it's better this way, so you can decide if it's better to retreat.

 

[Questdog]

I think they only wake when they are hit, not just by spotting enemy units. And it's better this way, so you can decide if it's better to retreat.

Without the option on, they do NOT awake at all until they are fully healed. If they take damage, they just continue to try to heal and the unit is never automatically selected, so you can easily overlook the situation and only be notified when the unit is killed....

 

[Stalker0]

Just checking, is 17 turns to build a plains pasture normal on standard speed? That feels really long to me, but maybe I am just not remembering correctly.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

This looks silly.....

With 9 cities, I get a total of 27 unhappiness by crime alone....I researched now rifling, enabling me to build arsenal, but have build every other defensive building in every city. The only other nation which have researched rifling is persia and it looks like, they have build it in 3 turns in every city.
4 of the 5 AI have picked fealty, giving every city +15 strenght....... serious.... in all my games more than half AI civ picked fealty (some picked artistry and fealty) and I suffer even in capitol with red fort (+30 strenght) crime penalty (previos game).... this sucks.
Ive picked progress with the reduced treshhold for unhappiness, and still....

 

[Moi Magnus]

This looks silly.....

With 9 cities, I get a total of 27 unhappiness by crime alone....I researched now rifling, enabling me to build arsenal, but have build every other defensive building in every city. The only other nation which have researched rifling is persia and it looks like, they have build it in 3 turns in every city.
4 of the 5 AI have picked fealty, giving every city +15 strenght....... serious.... in all my games more than half AI civ picked fealty (some picked artistry and fealty) and I suffer even in capitol with red fort (+30 strenght) crime penalty (previos game).... this sucks.
Ive picked progress with the reduced treshhold for unhappiness, and still....

Your wars does not help:
Your best units are fighting, so not inside cities to give defensive bonuses.

 

[Stalker0]

This looks silly.....

With 9 cities, I get a total of 27 unhappiness by crime alone....I researched now rifling, enabling me to build arsenal, but have build every other defensive building in every city. The only other nation which have researched rifling is persia and it looks like, they have build it in 3 turns in every city.
4 of the 5 AI have picked fealty, giving every city +15 strenght....... serious.... in all my games more than half AI civ picked fealty (some picked artistry and fealty) and I suffer even in capitol with red fort (+30 strenght) crime penalty (previos game).... this sucks.
Ive picked progress with the reduced treshhold for unhappiness, and still....

The key to crime in the mid game is actually constabularies. I find the other defensive stuff too fiddly, but doing a round of constabulary building will help take a bite out of crime (yes I went there for those who know the reference)

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Your wars does not help:
Your best units are fighting, so not inside cities to give defensive bonuses.

There is a unit in every of my cities.

The key to crime in the mid game is actually constabularies. I find the other defensive stuff too fiddly, but doing a round of constabulary building will help take a bite out of crime (yes I went there for those who know the reference)

Ok, your right, I didnt see theres such a huge modifier in costabularies. Was it always that high? I cant remember seen such a huge -50% modifier...... But serious, this calculations and the fealty scaler makes this building a must have or its over. And theres still all the other deficits in happiness. As you can see, I have plenty of polder, all are producing 4 gold already, and still, my cities are unhappy cause of poverty. And while Iam social leader together with Kelts, I am deep in unhappiness by boredom. This makes no sense. (cant imagine what would happen, if i hadnt chosen progress with the treshold reduction.....).
And iam also science leader.... my people are unhappy by illiteracy too....

Does anybody else have such numbers?