New Beta Version - June 14th (6/14)

[Anno]

it's +1% and +1 pressure per follower in every city, correct? India's UA seems to shoot itself in the foot because the happiness system makes your ability to control growth a very central mechanic. at 46, and with India's extra 5% carryover from Harrapan Reservoir, that capital effectively grows 1.5x faster than any other city on the map. And I just unlocked agribusiness, so that freight train just keeps on goin'. You'll notice several 12 farms in that pic

I think it's mostly a micro tax, tbh. It's really easy to miss when your religion starts firmly running out of control (at least where I play on Prince) and suddenly your growth rockets up over the course of an evening and you really should be throwing a few more people into specialist slots or sending them to the mines. I like that that's part of the challenge, and maybe the tradeoff is super worth it and I just don't understand it enough, it just would be cool if there was like One More (small) Thing.

 

[Stalker0]

Perhaps the solution is a happy bonus for India instead of a general change to happiness.

 

[Txurce]

Perhaps the solution is a happy bonus for India instead of a general change to happiness.

Is there even a problem?

 

[pineappledan]

Perhaps the solution is a happy bonus for India instead of a general change to happiness.

Is there even a problem?

The problem is that luxuries are doing far too little to address the needs of a tall empire. I have 327 population, 15 unique luxuries, and that nets me 21 happiness. the luxury system HEAVILY favours wide, low population empires.

This also gets into how highly the AI values luxury trade, such that it will often give you 8+ GPT for what is effectively 1

 

[Txurce]

The problem is that luxuries are doing far too little to address the needs of a tall empire. I have 327 population, 15 unique luxuries, and that nets me 21 happiness. the luxury system HEAVILY favours wide, low population empires

Gazebo explained why your India example is not a good one. I haven't read of other people playing well-executed games going tall who are complaining about happiness.

 

[pineappledan]

Gazebo explained why your India example is not a good one. I haven't read of other people playing well-executed games going tall who are complaining about happiness.

...No he didn't. All he said was that the city is very big, he didn't say that I was doing anything wrong.

"well-executed games". ugh...

• I have no occupied cities.
• I am not at war with anyone.
• I have a garrison in every city.
• I have walls/castles and constabularies in every city
• I am averaging 1 in every city that isn't my capital
• As you can see from my picture, I have literally built every possible structure in my capital.
• I'm not even playing at a high difficulty (Prince)
• I am only 2-3 techs ahead.

In summation, I have done my damndest to control unhappiness this game, but India's explosive growth is too much to handle. The luxury mechanic, which has an explicit scaler based on population, is simply not adequate. You seem to be suggesting that 21 happiness from 15 luxuries in the Industrial era is a deliberate design choice. If that is the case, then I will simply have to modify that myself. I have 2x as much happiness generated from infrastructure than I do luxuries, and that just makes zero sense to me.

 

[Gazebo]

...No he didn't. All he said was that the city is very big, he didn't say that I was doing anything wrong.

"well-executed games". ugh...

• I have no occupied cities.
• I am not at war with anyone.
• I have a garrison in every city.
• I have walls/castles and constabularies in every city
• I am averaging 1 in every city that isn't my capital
• As you can see from my picture, I have literally built every possible structure in my capital.
• I'm not even playing at a high difficulty (Prince)
• I am only 2-3 techs ahead.

In summation, I have done my damndest to control unhappiness this game, but India's explosive growth is too much to handle. The luxury mechanic, which has an explicit scaler based on population, is simply not adequate. You seem to be suggesting that 21 happiness from 15 luxuries in the Industrial era is a deliberate design choice. If that is the case, then I will simply have to modify that myself. I don't think luxuries should impact the game that little.

I don't think you explicitly did anything wrong per se, but if your cities are large to the point that you're growing into growth and throwing citizens into food slots to grow more, you're creating a high-level equilibrium trap: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-level_equilibrium_trap

There is no advantage whatsoever to being tall for the sake of being tall - if you can't leverage it, it's just a drain.

G

 

[Gazebo]

In case you're curious:

//    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
int CvPlayer::GetBonusHappinessFromLuxuries() const
{
    if (getPopNeededForLux() <= 0)
        return 0;

    int iNumHappinessResources = 0;
    ResourceTypes eResource;
    for(int iResourceLoop = 0; iResourceLoop < GC.getNumResourceInfos(); iResourceLoop++)
    {
        eResource = (ResourceTypes) iResourceLoop;

        if(eResource != NO_RESOURCE && (GetHappinessFromLuxury(eResource) > 0))
        {
            iNumHappinessResources++;
        }
    }
    return (iNumHappinessResources * GetBaseLuxuryHappiness()) / max(1, (getNumCities() / max(1, GC.getBALANCE_HAPPINESS_POPULATION_DIVISOR())));
}

and

//    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
int CvCity::getThresholdAdditions(YieldTypes eYield) const
{
    int iModifier = GC.getBALANCE_UNHAPPY_CITY_BASE_VALUE();

    CvPlayer& kPlayer = GET_PLAYER(getOwner());
    iModifier += kPlayer.GetTechDeviation();

    //Increase threshold based on # of citizens and cities. Makes larger cities more and more difficult to maintain.
    int iPopMod = (getPopulation() * getPopulation()) * GC.getBALANCE_HAPPINESS_POP_MULTIPLIER();

    int iDivisor = 100;
    switch (eYield)
    {
    case YIELD_CULTURE:
        iDivisor += GC.getBALANCE_UNHAPPY_CITY_BASE_VALUE_BOREDOM();
        break;
    case YIELD_SCIENCE:
        iDivisor += GC.getBALANCE_UNHAPPY_CITY_BASE_VALUE_ILLITERACY();
        break;
    case YIELD_GOLD:
        iDivisor += GC.getBALANCE_UNHAPPY_CITY_BASE_VALUE_POVERTY();
        break;
    case YIELD_PRODUCTION:
        iDivisor += GC.getBALANCE_UNHAPPY_CITY_BASE_VALUE_DISORDER();
        break;
    }

    iPopMod /= max(1, iDivisor);

    iModifier += iPopMod;

    if(isCapital())
    {
        iModifier += kPlayer.GetCapitalUnhappinessModCBP();
    }
    
    return iModifier;
}

may be of interest.

G

 

[pineappledan]

There is no advantage whatsoever to being tall for the sake of being tall - if you can't leverage it, it's just a drain.

Well there's always some advantage, thanks to the scaler buildings like public school/museum/water mill. India's UA also makes population growth the only method to spread your religion. It's not like I was ignoring specialists either; I wasn't. I filled every possible slot as soon as they became available.

There wasn't much for me to do except grow. I was placed on a floodplain with few hills to begin, so I grew. I suppose I could have used the UA as a means of being able to avoid growth, but that would hurt my religion, and doesn't seem like what India was built to do. Maybe I could have put some citizens as labourers, but my farms gave as much / as a labourer already, may as well get the food too.

None of this is very intuitive. The Harrappan reservoir gives +2 on farms, so I built farms to leverage that, and I got cathedrals to leverage that further. The UA gives religious pressure for higher pop, and removes my ability to spread otherwise, so growing is explicitly rewarded by the UA. With how it ends up screwing the happiness and luxury mechanics though, it feels a bit like a honey trap.

I'm not well-equipped to understand the formulas you have posted. Is this right for a simplified version of equation 1?

Happiness= (No.UniqueResources * baseHappiness) / (No.Cities/(FxTotalPopulation))

I have no idea what the "happinessPopulationDivisor.GC" is, so I can't really make heads or tails of that formula, other than to guess it is some product of a formula based on total population.

Even if that is the case, I don't think it's right that I am generating <25% of my gross happiness from luxuries (21/89). However the formula is working out, it's making luxuries fairly irrelevant.

EDIT: for funzies, I want to calculate the scalers I had on that city of 46 now:
Water Mill: 11.5
Factory: 11.5
Public School: 11.5
Museum (didn't have tech yet): 15
Stock Market (didn't have tech yet): 23
That's pretty cool!

 

[BiteInTheMark]

I already mentioned, with the introduced exponential population modifier, playing India make no sense.
Their UA and UB both push food and growth, and you have to use it, else you cant counter your UA disadvantages.
I dont want to say the exponential pop modifier is bad, but indias UA have to be modified, else this civilization is no fun to play.
I believe the UA effect is +2% growth and pressure per FOLLOWER of your religion, not population. If we add -2% needs for every follower of your religion, this would counter the exponential effect of population long enough and make their UA and UB useful again.

Gazebo, could you write the code for such effect and give it to pineappledan? He could copy it into his folder and check, how much influence this change would have. And if this change works for india? He could also play a bit with the number and maybe find a sweet spot.
Once ive made an indian capital with 58 population, and was able to reach around over 500 excess food. 46 population isnt the end of the indian UA.

 

[Owlbebach]

It says "you have 89 happiness from various sources"
19 from Policies
39 from buildings (i had the 1 from all universities and castles in cities, and 1 from national wonders. I also had zoos in 6 cities)
5 from difficulty (prince)
5 from natural wonders you have discovered
6 from luxury bonuses
15 from at least ONE COPY of each of these luxury resources:

Yeah, Demographics says my empire has 112 000 000 people. I was pretty happy with how big I had managed to build it. I didn't think my growth would be such a problem until it was too late. I have the red fort, and every crime/city defense building possible inside that city, but my crime has spiked as high as -17. Nothin I can do for it

It is more important to know where is your unhappiness is coning from. Though i'm not sure about recent changes, haven't played since April

 

[hokath]

I experienced this trap in my last game. I had a flood plains start as Egypt so I thought, "nom nom nom, farms everywhere." It was all going swimmingly until around Industrial and then my Capital was around 40 pop (?) and generating ~26 unhappiness. I couldn't see a good way to undo my mistake, all my soldiers deserted and my cities flipped to France - though as most unhappiness came from my capital this didn't reduce unhappiness and they kept flipping.

So next time I'll have to hold back on farms, but does this now mean that super-high food starts like that are just... bad?

 

[tu_79]

I experienced this trap in my last game. I had a flood plains start as Egypt so I thought, "nom nom nom, farms everywhere." It was all going swimmingly until around Industrial and then my Capital was around 40 pop (?) and generating ~26 unhappiness. I couldn't see a good way to undo my mistake, all my soldiers deserted and my cities flipped to France - though as most unhappiness came from my capital this didn't reduce unhappiness and they kept flipping.

So next time I'll have to hold back on farms, but does this now mean that super-high food starts like that are just... bad?

Not necessarily. You can put your citizens on non food workplaces, gaining more yields than just food.
There are still base food production coming from buildings, merchant city states and policies. Some extra growth from trade routes, too. But avoiding working on too many food tiles could do the trick. Specialists are becoming better just for their ability to slow down growth.

But for India I agree it's weird. The UB wants you to work on farms. The UA wants you to grow. It's thematic.

By the way, @pineappledan, can't you produce some great admiral (discovery voyage) or great musicians (concert tours)? Are you able to trade for more luxuries? Conquer them in the worst case? Can you ally city states with unique luxuries? Any city state quest grants happiness out there? Maybe too late but, have you chosen a religion that helps with happiness (Pacifism seems mandatory)? Maximizing happiness from the policies you've chosen? (Getting all national wonders for Tradition, focusing on great works for Artistry, sfsf.)

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

What mods are you guys using to experience traps in Civ? I'm interested.

Not necessarily. You can put your citizens on non food workplaces, gaining more yields than just food.
There are still base food production coming from buildings, merchant city states and policies. Some extra growth from trade routes, too. But avoiding working on too many food tiles could do the trick. Specialists are becoming better just for their ability to slow down growth.

But for India I agree it's weird. The UB wants you to work on farms. The UA wants you to grow. It's thematic.

By the way, @pineappledan, can't you produce some great admiral (discovery voyage) or great musicians (concert tours)? Are you able to trade for more luxuries? Conquer them in the worst case? Can you ally city states with unique luxuries? Any city state quest grants happiness out there? Maybe too late but, have you chosen a religion that helps with happiness (Pacifism seems mandatory)? Maximizing happiness from the policies you've chosen? (Getting all national wonders for Tradition, focusing on great works for Artistry, sfsf.)

Your questions are weird. He's researching Dynamite and 48 pop cannot be gotten early, India or not. You can clearly see his build order doesn't allow any buildings/wonders and he's in late game so he has everything available built. It's pretty obvious he has every national wonder. The things you suggest would maybe add 10 Happiness tops, he'd still be -20+ . I think his greatest mistake is going Fealty though. Delhi city tile displays no yields of all types so it cannot be statecraft, and it displays no Golden Age points so it wasn't Artistry. He'd still be unhappy anyway and at 40+ pop, but it was probably a bad idea anyway. It did hurt too much even if it shouldn't matter so horribly, huge cities seem to be unmanageable as of now.

 

[tu_79]

What mods are you guys using to experience traps in Civ? I'm interested.



Your questions are weird. He's researching Dynamite and 48 pop cannot be gotten early, India or not. You can clearly see his build order doesn't allow any buildings/wonders and he's in late game so he has everything available built. It's pretty obvious he has every national wonder. The things you suggest would maybe add 10 Happiness tops, he'd still be -20+ . I think his greatest mistake is going Fealty though. Delhi city tile displays no yields of all types so it cannot be statecraft, and it displays no Golden Age points so it wasn't Artistry. He'd still be unhappy anyway and at 40+ pop, but it was probably a bad idea anyway. It did hurt too much even if it shouldn't matter so horribly, huge cities seem to be unmanageable as of now.

How many great musicians can be produced? 5-8 in a game? They give 4 happiness each one, isn't it? 20-30 happiness? Great admirals give 2 extra luxuries each one, so having a little sea fight here and there might give like 6 luxuries. Another 12-18 happiness? Pacifism I can't say, but I had games with happiness in the hundreds thanks to pacifism.
Sure, I wasn't aware that it had sunk so much, didn't remember the total unhappiness. I think you are right and he went Fealty (even more food?). About national wonders, I've found myself from time to time forgetting to build some of them, which may account for other 10 happiness. It may be obvious for you, but it says 19 happiness from policies, so I don't really know what comes from tradition and what from other policies.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

How many great musicians can be produced? 5-8 in a game? They give 4 happiness each one, isn't it? 20-30 happiness? Great admirals give 2 extra luxuries each one, so having a little sea fight here and there might give like 6 luxuries. Another 12-18 happiness? Pacifism I can't say, but I had games with happiness in the hundreds thanks to pacifism.
Sure, I wasn't aware that it had sunk so much, didn't remember the total unhappiness. I think you are right and he went Fealty (even more food?). About national wonders, I've found myself from time to time forgetting to build some of them, which may account for other 10 happiness. It may be obvious for you, but it says 19 happiness from policies, so I don't really know what comes from tradition and what from other policies.

To be honest Fealty wasn't such a bad idea now that I think about it. With Statecraft he'd be getting pretty much the same food in the capital at this point (though also other yields to lower other stuff, but then he'd have WAY higher Crime as well) so he'd have the same population anyway, also around 10, and if he's using his 4UC mod he's also getting free Culture because of CS. And he has Cathedrals as well. Great Musicians are fine and dandy, but why would he be spending his first ones on tours (which I assume 1-2 at most have spawned already) before he's had spiralling, unsolvable happiness problems? India has no bonus Great People generation, he seems to be in early industrial, he would've had gotten 2-3 at this point at most. Guilds for Musicians unlock mid/late renaissance.
The most important question I can see is

Spoiler :

where are my promised traps

 

[Anno]

Fealty feels really good and thematic playing India, especially if you’re playing with 3rd/4th UC. It helps with crime and boredom, gives a scaling culture modifier for a country who naturally grows big cities and gives your religion the big shot in the arm it needs to really start snowballing, which you otherwise kinda lack. Plus an extra happy in each city after you build your cheap castles. If you’re playing 4UC then the extra defense adds up nicely with the defense-to-culture exchange of the UB which you get +100% hammers towards building. It all lines up really nicely. It’s just kinda weird that the extra growth can actually be a negative for a Civ thematically based on scaling growth bonuses.

 

[tu_79]

Another thing to look at:
Why is Delhi working still on so many farms? Over 400 food production, more than 100 people, and still want to grow? Many of those farms just give 2 gold, or 1 hammer and 2 gold, are they worth it? I'd put lots of villages as a first step.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Another thing to look at:
Why is Delhi working still on so many farms? Over 400 food production, more than 100 people, and still want to grow? Many of those farms just give 2 gold, or 1 hammer and 2 gold, are they worth it? I'd put lots of villages as a first step.

At this point it's too late to apologise or do anything and the game's ruined anyway, the only way for the leaf to salvage it is to change

INSERT INTO Defines (
Name, Value)
SELECT 'BALANCE_HAPPINESS_POP_MULTIPLIER', '17'
WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_CITY_HAPPINESS' AND Value= 1 );

into maybe

INSERT INTO Defines (
Name, Value)
SELECT 'BALANCE_HAPPINESS_POP_MULTIPLIER', '10'
WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_CITY_HAPPINESS' AND Value= 1 );

That is, assuming that's the right thing I'm shooting at.

Changing
INSERT INTO Defines (
Name, Value)
SELECT 'BALANCE_HAPPINESS_CAPITAL_MODIFIER', '25'
WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_CITY_HAPPINESS' AND Value= 1 );

into
INSERT INTO Defines (
Name, Value)
SELECT 'BALANCE_HAPPINESS_CAPITAL_MODIFIER', '0'
WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_CITY_HAPPINESS' AND Value= 1 );
Might help as well. Capital'd no longer have 25% higher needs than the rest of the cities.

First zip contains first change only, second both.

 

[tu_79]

At this point it's too late to apologise or do anything and the game's ruined anyway, the only way for the leaf to salvage it is to change

INSERT INTO Defines (
Name, Value)
SELECT 'BALANCE_HAPPINESS_POP_MULTIPLIER', '17'
WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_CITY_HAPPINESS' AND Value= 1 );

into maybe

INSERT INTO Defines (
Name, Value)
SELECT 'BALANCE_HAPPINESS_POP_MULTIPLIER', '10'
WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_CITY_HAPPINESS' AND Value= 1 );

That is, assuming that's the right thing I'm shooting at.

Changing
INSERT INTO Defines (
Name, Value)
SELECT 'BALANCE_HAPPINESS_CAPITAL_MODIFIER', '25'
WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_CITY_HAPPINESS' AND Value= 1 );

into
INSERT INTO Defines (
Name, Value)
SELECT 'BALANCE_HAPPINESS_CAPITAL_MODIFIER', '0'
WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_CITY_HAPPINESS' AND Value= 1 );
Might help as well. Capital'd no longer have 25% higher needs than the rest of the cities.

First zip contains first change only, second both.

Cheating?