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New Beta Version - June 14th (6/14)

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Gazebo, Jun 14, 2018.

  1. Moi Magnus

    Moi Magnus Emperor

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    A long time ago (at a time happiness was not really a problem for tall), you could grow as much as you want, as long as you have enough production to build every building as soon as you research them, and enough gold to invest in it systematically (and enough science/culture to not fall behind). Not sure if it is still the case.

    Agree with that idea. Though I would rather have it affect growth, since affecting food production could go into a cycle "not enough food for specialist -> more unhappiness -> even less food".
    In fact, we could focus the unhappiness malus to growth and science (and reduce it to gold and culture), so that if you have unhappiness problem, the game prevent you from deeping even farther in those problems.
     
    tu_79 and CppMaster like this.
  2. Omen of Peace

    Omen of Peace Warlord

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    What's the generally acceptable range of happiness variation over 1 turn?

    In my current Inca Emperor game, I went from +15 to -2 in 1 turn.
    I discovered Dynamite, which put me in the lead for science (by just 1 tech), AND another civ built the Empire State Building, so a drop is not surprising. But -17 is a big swing.

    The Unhappiness breakdown is as follows:
    Code:
    TURN   265     266
    Urba    13.25   11.5
    Pov      4      10
    Crime    9      13
    Rel Div  4       4
    Illit    5       8
    Bore    13      19
    I actually even went to -45 or so on the next turn, but after making quite a few changes in my cities (citizen reaffectation), and today I couldn't reproduce it when I went straight to the next turn, so I'll set that aside.

    I enabled logs but couldn't find a Happiness log (I assume I should turn on one or more of the additional log parameters...).

    Saves attached (they require the Modpack from the Modpack thread).

    I'll file a bug if that's deemed abnormal.
     

    Attached Files:

    vyyt likes this.
  3. Wasteland_Wanderer

    Wasteland_Wanderer Chieftain

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    There is a typo in this modpack that increases the unhappiness from having more techs researched than average by x10 more unhappiness. The fix for it, and more info, is on page 6 (I think) of this topic.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2018
  4. bigcat88

    bigcat88 King

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    @Omen of Peace pls attach PlayerHappinessStats.csv file, to see stats for other players&AI
     
  5. Maximo the Xth

    Maximo the Xth Warlord

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    Considering I'm only using Vox Populi, that's highly unlikely. Does it only work with EUI?
     
  6. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    It's not a mistake in your logic, yet you overlook the most important aspect.
    The exponential aspect of the population effect.....
    Every additional city you get (settle or conquer) increase your cost for tech/policy by a flat value. This effect even diminish for every additional city (theres a difference if you rise your cost from 120 to 130% or 220 to 230%.) Relativly, the punishment is getting smaller and smaller.
    While every additional population increase the happiness more and more by exponential calculation. Unnecessarily, cause it already get harder and harder to increase the yields per population. The best tiles are worked with the first citizen and the efficiency go down. So, with the exponential calculation, you are working not against 1, but against 2 mechanics at same time.
    Now look at the warmonger and the tourismn penalty. They are both capped (-75% tourismn and +25% warmonger penalty to enemies). No matter how many cities you have or how much war you lay over the world, it will not grow exponentially, instead it stop at a specified value. Both mechanics were integrated to stop runaways, but they are not as punishing as an exponential population effect.
    Iam not saying the exponential modifier to population is bad. But its a compromise solution, and its not the same as other anti-runaway mechanics in the game. And you should not praise it as given, because the effect is different and we are still looking for a balance.
    We are in a beta which is adressed to the happiness problem, and I really hope we get a solution which not only help india, cause I like to create 40+ big cities, also with other civilizations.
     
    Hinin likes this.
  7. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    I didn't say current happiness limits are set in stone. I was complaining that you were too eager to make changes based on one single game with too much growth.

    I see the problem of double punishing, but I think the biggest issue is the trap. Not knowing what is going on before it is too late and you can do something about it. As you say, any new citizen not only increases demand, but also usually works on worse tiles. That could explain the swings.

    But as pineappledan showed, he could not do anything to get out of this situation (yet there were a few things that he could have done, clicking on the avoid growth button, for example, probably not very evident, thus not noob friendly). Revolt mechanics, that usually help for wide over expansion unhappiness, are counter-productive. Even worse, his cities continued to grow, making it impossible to handle.

    If the happiness mechanic is here for preventing cities overgrowing, maybe it's a good idea to slow growth (thanks, Magnus) based on unhappiness.
    Would it work if growth is penalized by 50% at -10 happiness, and by 100% at -20 happiness?
    Edit. I'm not sure about penalizing science. Lacking gold already breaks research, and maybe a new tech is needed for a new building or increased yields. But it can be considered.
     
    CppMaster likes this.
  8. CppMaster

    CppMaster King

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    I like it. A little bit from vanilla.
     
  9. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    How do you define "too much growth"? At the moment, 45+ population is "too much". But only defined by the not finished happiness system, and less by the definition of developer/player.
    45 population isnt a magic high population for a capitol to me, and it isnt available only for india. Ive seen AI celts running 40+ cities, without picking food related religion stuff.
    I would define "36 tiles + 20 specialists + 2-4 from guilds = around 60" as maximum. Everything above dont make that much sense, cause the labors are not worth the effort and growing further would be only for fun or roleplay.

    I agree with you, theres not that much you can do, if your in the trap. Only by limiting growth before it happens. But its still counterintuitive to almost every other 4x game and extremly frustating, if your playing a civ with growth related benefits like india, china, inka, ......
    And it makes tenets or policies which give an extra food source or reduce food consumption kinda underwhelming. (aka freedom +3 food to farms)
     
  10. Rekk

    Rekk King

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    @Gazebo, could we get a firm understanding on how this works?
     
  11. Omen of Peace

    Omen of Peace Warlord

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    I already have the fix.

    I don't have this file.

    I set
    AILog = 1
    BuilderAILog = 1
    LoggingEnabled = 1

    Any other option I should set for it to appear? Sorry to be the noob...

    I saw
    MessageLog = 0
    RandLog = 0
    AIPerfLog = 0
    TutorialLog = 0
    PlayerAndCityAILogSplit = 0
    but didn't think they were relevant.
     
  12. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    Are you sure you applied the fix correctly, because that definitely looks like the bug is still there.

    Just in case, you go to MODS/(2)Community Balance Overhaul/Modular Elements/City Happiness Mod/City Happiness, and change SELECT 'BALANCE_HAPPINESS_TECH_BASE_MODIFIER' , '1.0' to SELECT 'BALANCE_HAPPINESS_TECH_BASE_MODIFIER', '0.1'. Make sure to save.

    If you already did all this, then sorry for annoying you.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2018
  13. Omen of Peace

    Omen of Peace Warlord

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    I confirm I do have the fix already. :)
     
  14. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Another misleading civilopedia entry:
    Floating garden says, a well is a necessary building, and doesnt mention, your city have to be on a river.
     
  15. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    Your city actually does not have to be on a river. The 'Required' building for the Floating Gardens is colored Red, indicating it's actually an anti-requisite. I suppose that could be made more clear, changing 'Required' to 'Anti requisite'.
     
  16. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Does this mean, I have to demolish the wells in my non-river cities to build the floating gardens?
     
  17. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    Yes.
     
  18. andersw

    andersw Prince

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    My first games with the SQL-fix 1.0 -> 0.1 I was way up in happiness, enough that I should probably try a higher difficulty.
     
  19. Anno

    Anno Chieftain

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    My newest India game with the 1.0 -> 0.1 fix has pretty manageable happiness as well, though I feel like it’s come at something of a cost. I’ve kept it around the +10-20 mark largely by keeping careful eye on my growth and checking it pretty frequently. As a result most other Civs are more densely populated than I am, which again kind of defeats the purpose of being India. I realize I’m not a great player so maybe there’s more I could do, though. I’ll give it another shot after Spain finishes off her SV.
     
  20. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Iam trying now an india game on my self and look, how much growth with india is possible.
    Going for good conditions with pacifismn on a pangäa map.
    Whats the size of your cities and in which time? (technological advantage)
     

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