New Beta Version - June 14th (6/14)

[Mad Madigan]

I agree with Enrico that the Jaguar CS seems fine as you still want to upgrade to Spearmen to get the Bonus vs. Mounted promotion in order to threaten Civs that rushed Military Theory for Horsemen/War Elephants.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

How many ruins do you come across with your samurai? It’s a pretty different situation when talking about a unique warrior replacement

That's only one such case with the ruin. It won't happen every game and it's still free Gold as you don't need to spend it on an upgrade, potentially more than the Gold a ruin would give you, as well as +1CS and +50% CS against mounted. Seems fine to me.

 

[pza]

It’s a pretty different situation when talking about a unique warrior replacement

thats probably the case for slow gamespeeds, not for for standard speed. i rarely build more than 1 warrior, if at all. if i get aztecs, it's a different thing.

 

[Gazebo]

I'm thinking ranged got overbuffed. Everything is tanky and hits hard.
Culture UB concerns also apply to BabyWall by the way. +2 Gold rather than -1 Gold would synergise with the UA and be interesting, especially if it costed just a tiny bit less Production. +1 Culture isn't all that interesting anymore now that almost all civs have it.



I don't agree concerning Jaguar CS, Samurai is also only 1 CS lower than a Tercio. In both cases, you upgrade less for CS increase and more for additional anti-mounted capabilities. Jaguar is unique in that it's the only unit available instantly, and if Spear was considerably better as it used to be, Jaggy'd not be good. Him holding his own against Spears means Aztecs have more flexibility and can avoid teching to Bronze Working and spending hundreds of Gold if they want to keep their unique unit.

I wouldn’t say tanky, but CS may come down a bit later. I will say this: AI wars are so much more balanced on this version. Far fewer continent wipes.

G

 

[pineappledan]

That's only one such case with the ruin. It won't happen every game and it's still free Gold as you don't need to spend it on an upgrade, potentially more than the Gold a ruin would give you, as well as +1CS and +50% CS against mounted. Seems fine to me.

Alright, well agree to disagree I guess. A civ with a spearman replacement like Greece can get a 100% increase in CS on a unit from a ruin on turn 10. a 10% increase in CS and a bonus to a unit type that hasn't even been unlocked yet, as opposed to some extra production or culture, is a complete lemon.

I wouldn’t say tanky, but CS may come down a bit later. I will say this: AI wars are so much more balanced on this version. Far fewer continent wipes.

This new meta puts more power into ranged units, which human players are much better at using than the AI. The only way to test it is with humans, and that is what we shall do!

 

[wistak]

When i run fireturner to create modpack

Only VoxPopuli (with EUI from installer)

TopPanel: Finished loading EUI top panel 138.812
PlotHelpManager: GameInfo.PolicyBranchTypes[-1] is undefined
Runtime Error: C:\Users\wistak\Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\MODS\(6a) Community Balance Overhaul - Compatibility Files (EUI)\LUA\UnitPanel.lua:1321: attempt to call method 'GetChargesLeft' (a nil value)
Runtime Error: C:\Users\wistak\Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\MODS\(6a) Community Balance Overhaul - Compatibility Files (EUI)\LUA\TopPanel.lua:457: attempt to call method 'GetGAPFromReligion' (a nil value)
Runtime Error: C:\Users\wistak\Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\MODS\(6a) Community Balance Overhaul - Compatibility Files (EUI)\LUA\TechButtonInclude.lua:217: attempt to call field 'AnyoneHasWonder' (a nil value)
Runtime Error: C:\Users\wistak\Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\MODS\(6a) Community Balance Overhaul - Compatibility Files (EUI)\LUA\UnitPanel.lua:1321: attempt to call method 'GetChargesLeft' (a nil value)
Runtime Error: C:\Users\wistak\Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\MODS\(6a) Community Balance Overhaul - Compatibility Files (EUI)\LUA\TopPanel.lua:457: attempt to call method 'GetGAPFromReligion' (a nil value)

 

[Moi Magnus]

When i run fireturner to create modpack

Only VoxPopuli (with EUI from installer)

TopPanel: Finished loading EUI top panel 138.812
PlotHelpManager: GameInfo.PolicyBranchTypes[-1] is undefined
Runtime Error: C:\Users\wistak\Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\MODS\(6a) Community Balance Overhaul - Compatibility Files (EUI)\LUA\UnitPanel.lua:1321: attempt to call method 'GetChargesLeft' (a nil value)
Runtime Error: C:\Users\wistak\Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\MODS\(6a) Community Balance Overhaul - Compatibility Files (EUI)\LUA\TopPanel.lua:457: attempt to call method 'GetGAPFromReligion' (a nil value)
Runtime Error: C:\Users\wistak\Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\MODS\(6a) Community Balance Overhaul - Compatibility Files (EUI)\LUA\TechButtonInclude.lua:217: attempt to call field 'AnyoneHasWonder' (a nil value)
Runtime Error: C:\Users\wistak\Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\MODS\(6a) Community Balance Overhaul - Compatibility Files (EUI)\LUA\UnitPanel.lua:1321: attempt to call method 'GetChargesLeft' (a nil value)
Runtime Error: C:\Users\wistak\Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\MODS\(6a) Community Balance Overhaul - Compatibility Files (EUI)\LUA\TopPanel.lua:457: attempt to call method 'GetGAPFromReligion' (a nil value)

Post it on Github (if not already done)

 

[wistak]

done

 

[Gazebo]

Alright, well agree to disagree I guess. A civ with a spearman replacement like Greece can get a 100% increase in CS on a unit from a ruin on turn 10. a 10% increase in CS and a bonus to a unit type that hasn't even been unlocked yet, as opposed to some extra production or culture, is a complete lemon.
This new meta puts more power into ranged units, which human players are much better at using than the AI. The only way to test it is with humans, and that is what we shall do!

A bit more power, but not that much more. Most ranged units can survive two hits instead of being gibbed instantly.

 

[wistak]

AI with explorers in 57 quick turn is normal?

 

[chicorbeef]

AI with explorers in 57 quick turn is normal?

Maybe they got a double ruin upgrade? Are they in the Medieval and is the tech cost of Compass lowered compared to any other techs?

 

[pineappledan]

Culture UB concerns also apply to BabyWall by the way. +2 Gold rather than -1 Gold would synergise with the UA and be interesting, especially if it costed just a tiny bit less Production. +1 Culture isn't all that interesting anymore now that almost all civs have it.

I agree. Culture feels like it is being passed out willy-nilly. There are few UBs left which don't grant some form of culture generation.

The change to Walls of Babylon now conflicts with a 4UC component we made for Assyria. So while I agree with you, It's as much for my own selfish reasons as it is for any legitimate concern.

Personally, I really like that Babylon is a civ that benefits massively from gold income, but has nothing in their kit which helps with gold generation. I don't think that adding gold is the solution because I think it negatively affects the flavor of the civ as a whole.

I want to reiterate a point that @randomnub made in his old post concerning Babylon, which is that the investment bonus is so overwhelmingly useful as a boost to wide/thick play that Babylon's tall-focused GP bonus has become nothing but an afterthought. It is my opinion that the WoB needs a bonus which doubles down on the GP-generation aspect of the civ.
Maybe it could give 1 to scientist slots in the city, so scientists offset the cost of their own food consumption? That would mean a scientist consumes only 2 in the ancient/classical, same as any non-specialist citizen.

 

[Favorius]

Thank you for all your work my lord.

Time to start a new game

 

[Gazebo]

I agree. Culture feels like it is being passed out willy-nilly. There are few UBs left which don't grant some form of culture generation.

The change to Walls of Babylon now conflicts with a 4UC component we made for Assyria. So while I agree with you, It's as much for my own selfish reasons as it is for any legitimate concern.

Personally, I really like that Babylon is a civ that benefits massively from gold income, but has nothing in their kit which helps with gold generation. I don't think that adding gold is the solution because I think it negatively affects the flavor of the civ as a whole.

I want to reiterate a point that @randomnub made in his old post concerning Babylon, which is that the investment bonus is so overwhelmingly useful as a boost to wide/thick play that Babylon's tall-focused GP bonus has become nothing but an afterthought. It is my opinion that the WoB needs a bonus which doubles down on the GP-generation aspect of the civ.
Maybe it could give 1 to scientist slots in the city, so scientists offset the cost of their own food consumption? That would mean a scientist consumes only 2 in the ancient/classical, same as any non-specialist citizen.

Lots of new code, not going to do that.

I don't see an issue with getting a bit of culture on your UB. Early culture is very useful and flexible.

G

 

[chicorbeef]

I just want to support the point that I don't think that adding Culture to Floating Gardens/Walls of Babylon is a particularly meaningful buff at all because this is the same as the Tabya, Longhouse, Paper Maker, Ikanda, and is similar to Japan's UA and Goddess of Protection (just without the Faith). And there's culture on early resources like Coral/Dyes/Furs, and those culture giving pantheons. We already have so many sources, why add more?

I'll reiterate my suggestion that Walls of Babylon should be cheaper instead (maybe remove their maintenance) and I support Enrico's suggestion of an improved production scaler for the Floating Garden.

I don't think any of the listed buildings above really need culture, they're all solid buildings already. Extra culture on early buildings should be reserved for buildings like the Colosseum/Acropolis, and this would also make civs like the Shoshone/Huns with light early culture on their UI more distinct. And of course Japan-it gets +1 culture on Walls which Babylon gets and +1 culture from Barracks which Zulu gets. So it's only +1 culture per city above these two civs.

Anyway, I really love these changes! I can't wait to test out 9/9 War Chariots and 10 strength Jaguars and those Babylonian Bowmen and the Mayan Atlatlists. I have the typical dilemma right now of whether to abandon my current game in the Renaissance right now or not. And the policy changes and the new happiness tech modifier. Thanks!

 

[pineappledan]

Lots of new code, not going to do that.

INSERT INTO Building_SpecialistYieldChangesLocal
    (BuildingType, SpecialistType, YieldType, Yield)
VALUES
    ('BUILDING_WALLS_OF_BABYLON', 'SPECIALIST_SCIENTIST', 'YIELD_FOOD', 1);

Spoiler I deed it :

I wasn't suggesting creating a local food consumption reduction, but that scientists in cities with WoB generate food to offset their own consumption.

So Scientists consume 3, but also produce 1, for a net of -2, so they offset their own consumption slightly. If you go tradition, they only consume 1.5, so they offset that by 2/3, consuming only -0.5 net. This might be a soft carrot to get people to try tradition Babylon, since lately they have felt pretty locked in to Progress

I don't see an issue with getting a bit of culture on your UB. Early culture is very useful and flexible.

Absolutely nothing wrong with culture. The only issue is that if most UBs gets some culture, then they look homogenous. There's nothing wrong with +production, or +gold, etc.

UCs which generate culture (15 total):
Basilica, Paper Maker, Cothon, Runestone, Burial Tomb (via free artifact), Floating Garden, Walls of Babylon, Candi, Dojo, Wat, Tabya, Ceilidh Hall, Longhouse, Skola, Ikanda

UCs which do not give culture (11 total):
Bazaar, Coffee House, Steam mill, Harappan Reservoir, Seowon, Ger, Satraps' Court, Ducal Stable, Ostrog, Mission, Siege Foundry

UCs which replace buildings that already gave culture (7 total):
Hanse, Acropolis, Smithsonian, Royal Library, Stele, Colosseum, Piazza San Marco

There's just a lot of UBs with flat bonus culture, especially on Ancient/Classical eras.

If I were to suggest some buildings which could switch to a different yield, perhaps the following:
Ikanda: A kraal where young men assembled, trained, and where cattle were corralled. The Ikanda weren't overtly cultural things. A production or food boost would be more relevant the the building's real-world use.

Tabya: Nothing overtly cultural about cobworks on their own, unless they are expressly used to build a cultural building. Culture isn't necessarily bad, but it could be substituted for gold as well.

Floating Garden and Walls of Babylon: The newest additions to the culture club. Alternatives have already been floated.

 

[Gazebo]

INSERT INTO Building_SpecialistYieldChangesLocal
    (BuildingType, SpecialistType, YieldType, Yield)
VALUES
    ('BUILDING_WALLS_OF_BABYLON', 'SPECIALIST_SCIENTIST', 'YIELD_FOOD', 1);

Spoiler I deed it :

I wasn't suggesting creating a local food consumption reduction, but that scientists in cities with WoB generate food to offset their own consumption.

So Scientists consume 3, but also produce 1, for a net of -2, so they offset their own consumption slightly. If you go tradition, they only consume 1.5, so they offset that by 2/3, consuming only -0.5 net. This might be a soft carrot to get people to try tradition Babylon, since lately they have felt pretty locked in to Progress

I misunderstood what you were asking for. It's feasible, yes.

G

 

[Vortok]

Unsure how the code handles it, but are barbarian brutes included with the warriors? It's the only unit I can think of that has a barbarian specific name.

 

[black213]

With EUI, I get various errors on starting a game; can't load various textures. The UI is all inoperative. Works normally without EUI, other than the fact that wonder fail notifications are permanent.

 

[Txurce]

With EUI, I get various errors on starting a game; can't load various textures. The UI is all inoperative. Works normally without EUI, other than the fact that wonder fail notifications are permanent.

Works for me with EUI. May as well do the standard troubleshooting.