New Civs [Suggestion/Request]

giant49er said:
How about some changes to Italy to better represent the Maritime Republics and to make the game shorter?

Starting Location: Genoa (still flips Venice though)
Spawn Date: 1000 A.D. (founding of the Republic of Genoa)
UU: I can't think of anything now. Not Condottiero, since I think that'll be a mercenary. Maybe a naval unit?
UB: Same
UP: Same
UHV (may need adjustments to be feasible):
1.Control Sardinia, the Adriatic coast, Crimea, Greece, Crete or Cyprus, and Constantinople in 1250
2.Perform a trade mission to China by 1300
3.Have 8000 Gold and 10,000 Culture in 1600
Click to expand...

Please no. Venice was WAAAAAY more important than Genoa. Venice and Genoa got into some wars, and Venice whooped Genoa. My idea for changing Italy if Venice was added:

Spawn Date: 1415 AD, at Turin (representing Savoy). It does NOT flip Venice.
UU: Still Bersagliere
UB: Either keep it as Art Studio, or change it to Duomo (replaces Catholic Cathedral, requires only 2 Churches rather than 4, gives 2 Priests and 2 Artist slots, no happiness from incense)
UP: Keep it the same
UHV:
1. Have 7500 Culture build 2 Wonders by 1700 AD
2. Control all of Italy in 1870 (this will be much harder because foreign powers will usually control Rome and Naples by 1415 (ahistorically) and Austria will probably take Venice after it collapses)
3. Still the same

Normally, this would only be implemented if Venice was added, but if everyone kept seeing a unified Italy by 1300 AD, this could be changed to make it harder. If this happened, the wheat in the Po valley would have to be move 1W, to where Milan is, or possibly another wheat resource could be added there and the rice on Turin could be removed.
 
I'm not implying that Genoa was more important than Venice. In fact, most of the goals I suggested reflect Venice's achievements. Honestly it's not that important where the capital is. The only reason that I suggested it to be at Genoa instead of Venice is because Genoa would never get founded unless Italy's starting stack wasn't there. And it could even stay at Florence if need be.
 
Difference is between Italy and Germany (as I understand it) is that Italians themselves were never really very keen, nor had any need for, 'uniting' into one-Nation, unlike Germany. Much more than Prussia or even Spain, Italian unification was mostly just straight imperialism from Turin than any popular movement, the unifiers of Italy absolutely despised the south, and even now there's a fairly significant political party calling for a 'northern league', because a lot of Italians see the south as a source of crime/tax-burden and little more.
But of course the ultimate clincher is: Rhye himself never showed any interest in adding it.

the only positive thing that came from Italian unification, for Italians or anyone else; was that it crippled the Pope's temporal power forever.

anyway, im pretty sure leoreth has had his final word on this thread topic a few times.
 
Pavel Chichikov said:
Difference is between Italy and Germany (as I understand it) is that Italians themselves were never really very keen, nor had any need for, 'uniting' into one-Nation, unlike Germany. Much more than Prussia or even Spain, Italian unification was mostly just straight imperialism from Turin than any popular movement, the unifiers of Italy absolutely despised the south, and even now there's a fairly significant political party calling for a 'northern league', because a lot of Italians see the south as a source of crime/tax-burden and little more.
But of course the ultimate clincher is: Rhye himself never showed any interest in adding it.

anyway, im pretty sure leoreth has had his final word on this thread topic a few times.
Click to expand...

That is pretty much true, but still, Venice had a huge impact on history, more than unified Italy. That is why it should be its own nation BECAUSE Italian unification was Northern imperialism.
 
Bobby Martnen said:
Me too. Also, why do Dutch people not care when English speakers refer to "The Hague" (instead of Den Haag), but some Indians get mad about "Bombay" and "Calcutta"?

PS: Henry is the proper English form of Enrico
Click to expand...

Let me explain that to you. There are three major reasons for this.

1. You'll be very hard pressed to find a nation where the people care less about their own culture then the Netherlands. (Seriously we don't give a crap, especially regarding language ).
2. We've always had good trading relations with the British (except when under Napoleon rule), and we've had significant influence on each others language.
3. The Hague and Den Haag actually kinda sounds like each other. We understand that our language and our names are kinda difficult to pronounce properly. The Hague gets points for effort.

But honestly it's mostly the first reason. We don't give a crap about our own culture.
 
Honestly I could go for on or two more civs in the ancient era. Indus valley perhaps (granted we know to little about them, but they'll occupy an interesting position between India and Babylon). Their UHV could be mostly regarding repelling barbarians for a while and perhaps cultural. Their UP should be focused on the ancient era as they should have little to no chance to live passed it (perhaps similair to the Babylonion one). Their UB could be a special aqueduct that could be build with masonry alone (theirs seemed to have been superior to medieval European counterparts), their UU would be problematic for as far as I know there's no record of any military activity in that era/place (perhaps a settler which founds more developed cities? to represend their suprissing level of development ). It'd definitely could make the ancient era more interesting.
 
or Israel yo. found 2 world religions, never adopt pantheon or build pagan temples, get DoWed by greece, egypt, babylon, persia, phonecians, control 10 tiles by 1200 ad?
 
Pavel Chichikov said:
or Israel yo. found 2 world religions, never adopt pantheon or build pagan temples, get DoWed by greece, egypt, babylon, persia, phonecians, control 10 tiles by 1200 ad?
Click to expand...

Short answer: no.
Long answer: The entirety of Judea is like 2 tiles on the map, so it's way to small.

EDIT: Plus, I don't want every tile in Europe and the Middle East to be someone's core. ;)

EDIT2: Don't you remember how the Israel discussion went last time? http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=462919
 
MR Random, do you play RFCE? Because it has both Genoa and Venice, and they are a ton of fun to play. Unfortunately, they would not work the same in this mod due to the scale, and as such I play that when the mod to be a maritime republic hits me.
 
SheaferDaDawg said:
MR Random, do you play RFCE? Because it has both Genoa and Venice, and they are a ton of fun to play. Unfortunately, they would not work the same in this mod due to the scale, and as such I play that when the mod to be a maritime republic hits me.
Click to expand...

I have played RFCE. I still believe that Venice can fit on the scale of the mod. In Italy, it will work fine. If Venice is introduced into the mod, the changes for Italy would be implemented, and Venice would have 700 years to itself. Then, Italy would spawn at Turin and slowly unify Italy. They wouldn't be able to get Rome easily, because it would already be owned by France or Germany (better for gameplay). Then, Venice would collapse usually in the 1700s, allowing Savoy (Italy) to unite the peninsula. Venice would probably own Venice and another city in the Adriatic as their core cities. Sometimes, they would be able to take Constantinople. For the player, it wouldn't be too screwy. Here are the stats:

Spawn: 700 AD, at Venice
UP:the Power of Merchant Republic: starts the game with Republic and receives no stability penalties for it
UU: Gun Galley: replaces Caravel. Str. 5, Movement 5, transport space 2. Cannot enter oceans until Astronomy, and CANNOT ENTER RIVAL TERRITORY.
UB: Arsenal: replaces Drydock. Available with Optics instead of Steel.
UHV:
1. Conquer Constantinople by 1204 AD
2. Settle 4 Great Merchants in Venice by 1500 AD
3. Have 10,000 gold in 1700 AD

All of these are subject to change.
 
mrrandomplayer said:
I have played RFCE. I still believe that Venice can fit on the scale of the mod. In Italy, it will work fine. If Venice is introduced into the mod, the changes for Italy would be implemented, and Venice would have 700 years to itself. Then, Italy would spawn at Turin and slowly unify Italy. They wouldn't be able to get Rome easily, because it would already be owned by France or Germany (better for gameplay). Then, Venice would collapse usually in the 1700s, allowing Savoy (Italy) to unite the peninsula. Venice would probably own Venice and another city in the Adriatic as their core cities. Sometimes, they would be able to take Constantinople. For the player, it wouldn't be too screwy. Here are the stats:

Spawn: 700 AD, at Venice
UP:the Power of Merchant Republic: starts the game with Republic and receives no stability penalties for it
UU: Gun Galley: replaces Caravel. Str. 5, Movement 5, transport space 2. Cannot enter oceans until Astronomy, and CANNOT ENTER RIVAL TERRITORY.
UB: Arsenal: replaces Drydock. Available with Optics instead of Steel.
UHV:
1. Conquer Constantinople by 1204 AD
2. Settle 4 Great Merchants in Venice by 1500 AD
3. Have 10,000 gold in 1700 AD

All of these are subject to change.
Click to expand...

Venice cannot be a civilization. It was a city state, along with the other cities of Northern Italy. The best way to represent city states in DoC is to use the city states civic, not make them full-fledged civilization. Since Venice, Genoa, Florence, Pisa, Rome, Turin, and Milan were all city states that shared the same religion and similar languages and culture, they should all be represented by a Italy civilization running the city states civic.

On a different note, I have some more ideas regarding Italy.

-They should have a scripted respawn in 1720 at Sardinia and should flip Genoa/Turin/maybe Florence and Milan. This represents the unification of Sardinia and Savoy. Although Savoy was actually the center of power and was the Duchy was founded in 1416, spawning them later and on Sardinia would make the game a lot more interesting and shorter.
-UU: Bersagliere
-UB: Not sure, but not Duomo or Art Studio (Art Studio does not represent modern Italy and I think it's a bad idea to make a UB from a religious building. Maybe Collengantia from merijn's 2nd UU and UB modmodmod)
-UP: The Power of Mare Nostrum: 15% combat bonus when along or in the Mediterranean Sea (not sure if this is possible to code though)
-UHV goals or partial goals suggestions:
1. Do not lose a city to France or Austria before 1860
2. Control the Italian peninsula by 1860
3. Build a palace in Rome by 1870
4. Be the first to discover Radio and Fascism
5. Control 65% of the Mediterranean in 1945
 
giant49er said:
Venice cannot be a civilization. It was a city state, along with the other cities of Northern Italy. The best way to represent city states in DoC is to use the city states civic, not make them full-fledged civilization. Since Venice, Genoa, Florence, Pisa, Rome, Turin, and Milan were all city states that shared the same religion and similar languages and culture, they should all be represented by a Italy civilization running the city states civic.

On a different note, I have some more ideas regarding Italy.

-They should have a scripted respawn in 1720 at Sardinia and should flip Genoa/Turin/maybe Florence and Milan. This represents the unification of Sardinia and Savoy. Although Savoy was actually the center of power and was the Duchy was founded in 1416, spawning them later and on Sardinia would make the game a lot more interesting and shorter.
-UU: Bersagliere
-UB: Not sure, but not Duomo or Art Studio (Art Studio does not represent modern Italy and I think it's a bad idea to make a UB from a religious building. Maybe Collengantia from merijn's 2nd UU and UB modmodmod)
-UP: The Power of Mare Nostrum: 15% combat bonus when along or in the Mediterranean Sea (not sure if this is possible to code though)
-UHV goals or partial goals suggestions:
1. Do not lose a city to France or Austria before 1860
2. Control the Italian peninsula by 1860
3. Build a palace in Rome by 1870
4. Be the first to discover Radio and Fascism
5. Control 65% of the Mediterranean in 1945
Click to expand...

Have you read the past 3 pages?
 
He's pitching Italy changes that will never happen, you're pitching Italy changes that will never happen. I sit here drinking my coffee.

What's the specific problem?
 
mrrandomplayer said:
Have you read the past 3 pages?
Click to expand...

I have indeed read the past 3 pages and I don't know what that has to do with anything. You just put up a suggestion for Venice and I explained as best I could how it could not be, then I proposed a scripted Italian respawn. Was there something on these past 3 pages that would've made me not do those things?

Leoreth said:
He's pitching Italy changes that will never happen, you're pitching Italy changes that will never happen. I sit here drinking my coffee.

What's the specific problem?
Click to expand...

Sorry, I didn't know that Italy is a closed civ. I'll shut up about it then.
 
There's no reason to shut up really. I was actually speaking out against the attempt to disregard your post outright. Oh well.
 
giant49er said:
I have indeed read the past 3 pages and I don't know what that has to do with anything. You just put up a suggestion for Venice and I explained as best I could how it could not be, then I proposed a scripted Italian respawn. Was there something on these past 3 pages that would've made me not do those things?



Sorry, I didn't know that Italy is a closed civ. I'll shut up about it then.
Click to expand...

Actually, I was going to post a massive rant about Venice that would've been mostly in caps lock. Then I switched pages, and the page auto-refreshed and I had to start from scratch.

I don't like retyping things on an iPad.

Venice was not a city-state, just to get that out of the way, and it was much more outward-looking than other Italian nations. It conquered Constantinople and at its peak, controlled many parts of the Balkans, Crete, and Cyprus.
 
Rant or not, you're just wrong.
 
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