New Civs [Suggestion/Request]

[mrrandomplayer]

I can make the same kind of justification for Athens, Singapore, or any other individual city-state that was more influential than another compared to it's relevant peers.
I'll even use one of your own quotes to make my point:



All I need to do is swap a few words:

"Also, Greece is very culturally divided by region and even cities, much more than some other places. Historically, one could say that Athens had more influence on history than unified Greece had."

The fact still stands; Venice is Italian. Just like Athens was Greek, no matter how prestigious it was in comparison to it's peers, we aren't going to give it the inclusion treatment.



Therefore, as it does not fit the criteria outlined by Leoreth,
as the mod seeks to include civilizations and not states or polities
(which again, I must stress, is sufficiently covered by the Dynamic Civ Names),
no matter how important, it does not merit inclusion.
It could be made more clear with something like a mission statement.

I'll even draft one for you, Leoreth, if you want.

If it seems like I'm just shooting down Venice, I'm not.
I have studied Venice extensively (at least Renaissance Venice)
and understand completely that it was pretty unique compared to its peers in many regards;
so your point is not lost on me, mrrandomplayer, I know full well how different Venice was from the rest of Italy.
Especially considering their attitudes and approach to art (which reflects many of their societal norms and attitudes, which were fairly different from the rest of Italy).
Compare something from Titian or Bellini (The Feast of the Gods is my favorite amongst Renaissance art), to your typical Mannerist painting and the difference is staggering.

But to me, it still stands that Venice was Italian, and we do have an Italian civ in the game.
I don't know if I can say that enough. Sure, San Francisco & Houston might be as different as fire & water, but they're still part of the same civ, the American one.
Just because one city or city state has a margin of difference from the whole of its peers doesn't make it worthy of separation, especially if the whole civ is already represented.
If we did enable that, I'd be able to justify a unique Liverpool "civ" separate from England or Boston "civ" separate from America.

So on and so forth.

I have two things to say. During most of its time, Venice wasn't really an Italian state. It was neither Guelph or Ghibelline. It was for itself and the Byzantine empire for a while. Until long after its golden age, Venice didn't really have any Italian holdings, just a few fortified towns on the lagoon. By the time Venice did expand in Italy, it had already stopped being a true Mediterranean empire. Venice also tended to stay out of Italian conflicts. In general, they looked out to the Mediterranean, not in to Italy.

Also, the "Italian" language didn't really exist beyond various regional dialect until Dante wrote the Divine Comedy in a literary language based off of Tuscan dialects with smatterings of Latin and other regional dialects. The real idea of a unified Italy was not a goal of many Italians until the 1800s. If Venice (in theory) had conquered all of Italy before Dante (this would never happen), one might conclude that Italy would be called "Venice" because there was no concept of a unified Italy then.

 

[InsanelyApple]

I've already suggested a much more fleshed out Boer state

This isn't a "My suggestion is better than your's" thread. It's a thread to discuss ideas for new civs. Plus, I didn't suggest a Boer civ.

 

[InsanelyApple]

you guys have to be kidding about pueblo.. I don't want every tile on the map to be someone's core-area, thanks.

Nope, I wasn't kidding with the Anasazi. I think the game needs to get a more world focus instead of the predominately Europe focus it has now.

But, you have to be kidding about Venice. It wasn't even that unique from the Italian City States. If anything, we should add Tuscany before Venice!

EDIT: I could suggest adding the Tupi, Inuits, Aborigines, and more native tribes that didn't build complex societies, but that would be stupid. That's the reason I suggested the Anasazi (Pueblo) and Mississippians, because they did have a complex society.

EDIT2: Did you really think the guy with the icon of Po'pay of the Pueblo was joking about adding the Pueblo?

 

[mrrandomplayer]

Pueblo makes sense, but I think the Mississippi is a bit of a stretch. I think the Iroquois would be better for that. Then again, you know more about the topic than I do.

 

[civ_king]

This isn't a "My suggestion is better than your's" thread. It's a thread to discuss ideas for new civs. Plus, I didn't suggest a Boer civ.

Leaders:
Andries Pretorius at beginning
Paul Kruger in 1880
Nelson Mandela with Universal Suffrage and Egalitarianism


1) Kill 20 native units by 1900
2) Acquire 7 gems by 1930
3) Acquire a nuclear weapon by 1970

what they require

1) Military (represents early Boer history)
2) Expansion (Five in Sub-Saharan Africa and 2 in West Africa or get Luxury Industry and buy them) (represents early 20th century Boer/South African history)
3) Technology (represents (Mid-20th century South African history)

UB:
UU: Laager 14, 2:movement:, Guerilla 1 & II, Drill 1 (or 1 first strike), +50% defense, replaces machine gun.

 

[Leoreth]

I have two things to say. During most of its time, Venice wasn't really an Italian state. It was neither Guelph or Ghibelline. It was for itself and the Byzantine empire for a while. Until long after its golden age, Venice didn't really have any Italian holdings, just a few fortified towns on the lagoon. By the time Venice did expand in Italy, it had already stopped being a true Mediterranean empire. Venice also tended to stay out of Italian conflicts. In general, they looked out to the Mediterranean, not in to Italy.

Also, the "Italian" language didn't really exist beyond various regional dialect until Dante wrote the Divine Comedy in a literary language based off of Tuscan dialects with smatterings of Latin and other regional dialects. The real idea of a unified Italy was not a goal of many Italians until the 1800s. If Venice (in theory) had conquered all of Italy before Dante (this would never happen), one might conclude that Italy would be called "Venice" because there was no concept of a unified Italy then.

During most of its time, Lübeck wasn't really a German state. It was for itself and part of the Hansa for a while. Until long after its golden age, Lübeck didn't have any German holdings, just a few fortified towns at the coast. Lübeck also tended to stay out of German conflicts. In general, they looked out to the Baltic Sea, not into Germany.

Also, the "German" language didn't really exist beyond various regional dialects until Luther wrote his bible translation in a literary language based off of Saxon dialects with smatterings of other regional dialects. The real idea of a unified Germany was not the goal of many Germans until the 1800s. If Lübeck (in theory) had conquered all of Germany before Luther (this would never happen), one might conclude that Germany would be called "Lübeck" because there was no concept of a unified Germany then.

Less facetiously:

1) What you're saying applies to all trade republics in areas where the central power is weak. So this isn't a very convincing counter to what TD said. I mean, civilization is a pretty undefinable concept but surely you don't want to include every city that was a trade republic for a period in its history.

2) This again is nothing special. Italian languages did exist back then, and Venetian was one of them. Before roughly the 18th century standardization of language was basically unheard of in Europe, because of the low literacy rate and political centralization. This had the consequence that language barriers were a lot more fluent and many dialects existed in language continuums with each other. This was true for German, French, Spanish etc.

 

[mrrandomplayer]

During most of its time, Lübeck wasn't really a German state. It was for itself and part of the Hansa for a while. Until long after its golden age, Lübeck didn't have any German holdings, just a few fortified towns at the coast. Lübeck also tended to stay out of German conflicts. In general, they looked out to the Baltic Sea, not into Germany.

Also, the "German" language didn't really exist beyond various regional dialects until Luther wrote his bible translation in a literary language based off of Saxon dialects with smatterings of other regional dialects. The real idea of a unified Germany was not the goal of many Germans until the 1800s. If Lübeck (in theory) had conquered all of Germany before Luther (this would never happen), one might conclude that Germany would be called "Lübeck" because there was no concept of a unified Germany then.

Less facetiously:

1) What you're saying applies to all trade republics in areas where the central power is weak. So this isn't a very convincing counter to what TD said. I mean, civilization is a pretty undefinable concept but surely you don't want to include every city that was a trade republic for a period in its history.

2) This again is nothing special. Italian languages did exist back then, and Venetian was one of them. Before roughly the 18th century standardization of language was basically unheard of in Europe, because of the low literacy rate and political centralization. This had the consequence that language barriers were a lot more fluent and many dialects existed in language continuums with each other. This was true for German, French, Spanish etc.

The thing about Venice is that not only was it a merchant republic that did a lot of trading, it also had a pretty significant empire that directly traded with the Middle East and indirectly traded with the rest of Asia. Also, Venice took several actions that significantly affected history. They had Crete, Cyprus, several parts of the Balkans and a few parts of Greece. They took Constantinople for the first time ever (not counting when it was a Greek colony), and they won the battle of Lepanto, which contained Ottoman expansion in the European areas of the Mediterranean, took out a ton of experienced Ottoman sailors, and marked the Ottoman's first major naval defeat since the 1400s.

I remember there being a huge debate in the forums about the relationship between Prussia, the HRE, and Austria. In the end, Germany was effectively given two civs. The Khmer and Thailand coexist for a few turns, then the Khmer usually collapse, and the same thing happens with Prussia and the HRE. Prussia spawns, and the HRE collapses a few turns later. In the case of Vencie, Italy and Venice would coexist for more than a few turns(ideally, Italy would spawn in 1415 at Turin to represent Savoy), with Venice getting weaker after 1600 and eventually collapsing probably between 1700 and 1800. The relationship between Italy and Venice would be similar to that of Spain and Portugal; Venice would just control Venice, and Italy would (eventually) take the Indie cities and unify Italy after Venice collapses. It would work out just fine mechanically.

Basically, the point that I am trying to make is that not only was Venice a forward-thinking significant merchant republic, but it also was a historically significant empire that was a powerful naval force in the Mediterranean that warrants inclusion. I don't want Venice in the game "just because it is in Civ5". I wanted Venice in DoC before BNW was announced, and I genuinely believe that Venice was significant enough to be in this great mod.

 

[giant49er]

How about some changes to Italy to better represent the Maritime Republics and to make the game shorter?

Starting Location: Genoa (still flips Venice though)
Spawn Date: 1000 A.D. (founding of the Republic of Genoa)
UU: I can't think of anything now. Not Condottiero, since I think that'll be a mercenary. Maybe a naval unit?
UB: Same
UP: Same
UHV (may need adjustments to be feasible):
1.Control Sardinia, the Adriatic coast, Crimea, Greece, Crete or Cyprus, and Constantinople in 1250
2.Perform a trade mission to China by 1300
3.Have 8000 Gold and 10,000 Culture in 1600

 

[Askiya]

How about some changes to Italy to better represent the Maritime Republics and to make the game shorter?

Starting Location: Genoa (still flips Venice though)
Spawn Date: 1000 A.D. (founding of the Republic of Genoa)
UU: I can't think of anything now. Not Condottiero, since I think that'll be a mercenary. Maybe a naval unit?
UB: Same
UP: Same
UHV (may need adjustments to be feasible):
1.Control Sardinia, the Adriatic coast, Crimea, Greece, Crete or Cyprus, and Constantinople in 1250
2.Perform a trade mission to China by 1300
3.Have 8000 Gold and 10,000 Culture in 1600

I think Italy was intended to be a cultural civ, although these seem like good suggestions. A good UB could be an arsenal, although that's a Venetian thing.

 

[Leoreth]

Italian Renaissance > Maritime Republics. Venice and Genoa can go home.

 

[Wondering Kid]

Leaders:
Andries Pretorius at beginning
Paul Kruger in 1880
Nelson Mandela with Universal Suffrage and Egalitarianism


1) Kill 20 native units by 1900
2) Acquire 7 gems by 1930
3) Acquire a nuclear weapon by 1970

what they require

1) Military (represents early Boer history)
2) Expansion (Five in Sub-Saharan Africa and 2 in West Africa or get Luxury Industry and buy them) (represents early 20th century Boer/South African history)
3) Technology (represents (Mid-20th century South African history)

UB:
UU: Laager 14, 2:movement:, Guerilla 1 & II, Drill 1 (or 1 first strike), +50% defense, replaces machine gun.

This sounds interesting. Make them start at Cape Town and have Durban/Port Elizabeth as their Core Area.

 

[giant49er]

I think Italy was intended to be a cultural civ, although these seem like good suggestions. A good UB could be an arsenal, although that's a Venetian thing.

How about a combination of a culture, gold, and military civ? And I think the UB should stay as it is to help with culture and to represent Italian Renaissance

Italian Renaissance > Maritime Republics. Venice and Genoa can go home.

But they don't want to go home. The third goal that I suggested is pretty much a combined version of the current first and second goal, as it encourages the player to spam culture and also build San Marco Basilica, the Leaning Tower, and the Sistine Chapel. And I thought that a military goal would be interesting for Italy. The Marco Polo goal of mine isn't that important though and could probably be replaced. Could we at least replace the long "Control Mediterranean" goal with something about earlier military or gold. No offense, but it's kinda boring and easy because of the huge amount of time you have to do it.

 

[giant49er]

This sounds interesting. Make them start at Cape Town and have Durban/Port Elizabeth as their Core Area.

I think the plan was to make them start inland.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

But they don't want to go home.

Leoreth is a huge fan of the Italian Renaissance like you wouldn't believe. I doubt you could change his opinion on the matter.

Personally though, I think without the extensive interactions of the Maritime Republics with Byzantium (such as the Fourth Crusade) the ideas that sparked the Renaissance would not have been brought to Italy in the first place.

By the way, how about my idea about San Marco Basilica giving a discount to Mercenaries/Unit Hurry?

 

[InsanelyApple]

Pueblo makes sense, but I think the Mississippi is a bit of a stretch. I think the Iroquois would be better for that. Then again, you know more about the topic than I do.

The Iroquois is a fine society. I just think the Mississppians are cooler.

I think asking for more than one more native civilization is pushing my luck. Asking for three would like asking for Canada and Australia! (Joking about the Canada and Australia thing... Kind of...)

 

[Askiya]

How about a combination of a culture, gold, and military civ? And I think the UB should stay as it is to help with culture and to represent Italian Renaissance

I would certainly find the inclusion of gold and military aspects more interesting. Also, I see your point with the UB. Maybe somebody could try making a modmod with said Italian features.

 

[EndlessPat]

2.Perform a trade mission to China by 1300

That'd be a fun goal. It'd be difficult, but more interesting than the 65% of the Mediterranean goal.

 

[Daedwartin]

new additions to DoC must be civilizations and not states or polities.

better rule is this i think: whatever nations Leorth decides is worth his time and effort putting in, which is determined by many factors, such as historical importance, general balancing, amount of fun playing them will be and many others, shall be added in. It is possible to convince him to add a civ otherwise if one can provide sufficient argument that the game will be better if this civ is added.
As considering Europe, we are failing pretty badly at only Civilizations.

 

[archcapitalist]

Italian Renaissance > Maritime Republics. Venice and Genoa can go home.

arent the maritime republivs a large part of the renaissance

 

[blizzrd]

arent the maritime republivs a large part of the renaissance

Florence wasn't a maritime republic last time I checked.