New Civs [Suggestion/Request]

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

They only end up becoming that entity in the first place because according to Leoreth,
they (the Moors) survive enough to represent it. So I'm not certain what a respawn will bring to the table.

 

[mrrandomplayer]

I didn't mean resurrection as a new civ, just to get that out of the way.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Great wall had lost its function as a 'wall', but it still had function as an artificial obstacle that disabling large scale of horde invasion. Qing military forces could move over the Great wall quite easily, but they couldn't perform enough amount of operations. And they could destroy Ming completely after fall of laolongtou.

I'm afraid you'd have to rephrase that because I have no idea what you're trying to say.

Anyway, the gist about the Qing conquest of China concerning the topic at hand is this:

(1) The Chinese lost primarily because of their infighting. They had every other advantage such as technology and numbers.

(2) Shanhai Pass was strategically important due to its natural geography, not because the Great Wall ends there. That the Great Wall was built there is a result of Shanhai Pass's strategic importance, not the cause of it.

(3) The Great Wall itself played no role, just like how it played no role ever since 300 CE. Wu Sangui's great fortress, Ningyuan (which he abandoned), is actually north of the Great Wall. The conquest of southern China actually took longer and proved more difficult than that of northern China ("crossing" the Great Wall) because the Chinese became more united and organized in their resistance after the initial defeats.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

I'm afraid you'd have to rephrase that because I have no idea what you're trying to say.

Anyway, the gist about the Qing conquest of China concerning the topic at hand is this:

(1) The Chinese lost primarily because of their infighting. They had every other advantage such as technology and numbers.

Honestly, the Chongzhen Emperor's execution of Yuan Chonghuan (the only real reason why the Manchus had such trouble invading China from the beginning)
and Wu Sangui's betrayal of the Ming were probably the two most important reasons why the Qing succeeded.
So you are very correct on that count. It's difficult to portray that kind of thing in the game though.

Still though, the Qing conquest took a long time even after that; there were other factors like the Revolt of the Three Feudatories and my perennial favorite pirate king, Koxinga.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Oh, actually by infighting I meant it in a much broader sense - including Li Zicheng and Zhang Xianzhong's rebellions.

In game, a rough representation for that would be
- The Ming would already be Collapsing
- Multiple cities are in Revolt or have already declared Independence
- Large numbers of Barb and Independent units pillaging all Improvements in China
- Plague, Plague everywhere

All of these before the Qing invasion.

As for Yuan Chonghuan, China basically deleted its one remaining Great General in the field.

 

[Novicenoble]

I'm afraid you'd have to rephrase that because I have no idea what you're trying to say.

Anyway, the gist about the Qing conquest of China concerning the topic at hand is this:

(1) The Chinese lost primarily because of their infighting. They had every other advantage such as technology and numbers.

(2) Shanhai Pass was strategically important due to its natural geography, not because the Great Wall ends there. That the Great Wall was built there is a result of Shanhai Pass's strategic importance, not the cause of it.

(3) The Great Wall itself played no role, just like how it played no role ever since 300 CE. Wu Sangui's great fortress, Ningyuan (which he abandoned), is actually north of the Great Wall. The conquest of southern China actually took longer and proved more difficult than that of northern China ("crossing" the Great Wall) because the Chinese became more united and organized in their resistance after the initial defeats.

I just want to say that it (most of them rebuilted by Ming, but whatever) had militaristic effectiveness at least.
I agree that it was not useful as our general expectation to such kind of 'Wall'. However I think it also worked as post stations (and Minimal protection/ guide also) for traders and maybe this one was the most important rule of the Great wall.

Well... so I just wanted to make a redesign suggestion.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

^ Well, yeah, I was talking in terms of the Great Wall's current in game effect.

I don't think Great Wall needs a redesign though. It serves an important purpose and is quite interesting.

In my version of DoC the Great Wall is available with Masonry + Calendar and obsoletes with Feudalism (Castles). I think that's more or less historical.

 

[merijn_v1]

So at this point I think the reasonable suggestions boil down to:
Seljuks--> Timurids
Some kind of Manchurian civ
East African civ

I fully agree with this list.

The only civ I want to add is Polynesia. But this is only because of their unique playing style.
I can fully understand the reasons not to include them and I can live with that if that is the case.

 

[Leoreth]

I think when including Polynesia I would set it as optional with 0 chance of appearance as default value, so it would only appear when selected by the player.

And Swahili is indeed interesting.

 

[merijn_v1]

That is also how I would do it.

 

[EndlessPat]

I think when including Polynesia I would set it as optional with 0 chance of appearance as default value, so it would only appear when selected by the player.

If you introduce a human only-civ could that open the door for other civs? Civs that would mess up game play as AI, but be fun for the human player. It could be good for a number of "invader civs;" Goths, Bulgars, Jin, Gokturks, or native American/African cultures.

 

[Leoreth]

In general that'd be possible, even though I'd take it only so far. Polynesia isn't a problem because it lives in an otherwise empty region of the map, so other civs don't have to be changed to make them work. That's not the case for many invader civs however.

 

[JiimBV]

Suggestions for a Swahili civ:

Spawn: 900 AD, as InsanelyApple said

UP: Power of the Swahili Coast (or the Swahili Trade Confederation)
+2 trade routes in every city on the Swahili coast (Mogadishu to the tile 1E of the cow, South Africa)

UB: Dallal (replaces Customs House)
Available with Currency
Could use any sort of remotely unique Middle Eastern building graphic
^
These were Islamic brokers commonly found on the East African coast, speeding transactions between merchants and acting as a translator and mediator between parties.

UU: Dhow (replaces Galley)
5 (or 6) movement speed, can travel through cape
^
This is really the only option I can think of. It could replace galleys or triremes, but they were used for transport so I figure galley works best.

UHV:
1 - Have contact and open borders with 5 Islamic civilizations in 1250 (Arabia or Egypt, Moors, Mali, Mughals, 1 convert, if you're lucky both Arabs and Fatimids will be around)
2 - Have the highest commerce rate in the world in 1400 (maybe unfeasible?)
3 - Have 2 vassal states in 1500

 

[mrrandomplayer]

Suggestions for a Swahili civ:

Spawn: 900 AD, as InsanelyApple said

UP: Power of the Swahili Coast (or the Swahili Trade Confederation)
+2 trade routes in every city on the Swahili coast (Mogadishu to the tile 1E of the cow, South Africa)

UB: Dallal (replaces Customs House)
Available with Currency
Could use any sort of remotely unique Middle Eastern building graphic
^
These were Islamic brokers commonly found on the East African coast, speeding transactions between merchants and acting as a translator and mediator between parties.

UU: Dhow (replaces Galley)
5 (or 6) movement speed, can travel through cape
^
This is really the only option I can think of. It could replace galleys or triremes, but they were used for transport so I figure galley works best.

UHV:
1 - Have contact and open borders with 5 Islamic civilizations in 1250 (Arabia or Egypt, Moors, Mali, Mughals, 1 convert, if you're lucky both Arabs and Fatimids will be around)
2 - Have the highest commerce rate in the world in 1400 (maybe unfeasible?)
3 - Have 2 vassal states in 1500

The stats might need tweaking, but it seems feasible overall.

 

[Shayhon]

How about a UP that generates slaves upon city conquest?

 

[archcapitalist]

dont really care much for that uhv. for a civ like swahili to merit inclusion, it has to have a knockout uhv. those goals as described dont sound that fun, except for the second.

 

[Linkman226]

1. Conquer the world.
2. Be the first to Alpha Centauri
3. Have every city achieve the legendary culture level.

 

[NorwegianSalmon]

1. Conquer the world.
2. Be the first to Alpha Centauri
3. Have every city achieve the legendary culture level.

Sounds like an OCC raze every city-victory.

 

[Linkman226]

Sounds like an OCC raze every city-victory.

Dangnabbit, it seems there's always an exploit to everything

 

[Krulltak]

1. Conquer the world.
2. Be the first to Alpha Centauri
3. Have every city achieve the legendary culture level.

Are we adding the Planetary Usurpers to the game?