New Civs [Suggestion/Request]

[mrrandomplayer]

Okay fine, I give up.

For now!


I rest my case from the last 3 pages, but I know that won't change anything. To get this out the way, I don't hold any hard feelings or anything, and I understand your reasoning. I am just a very stubborn person and I fought hard for a certain idea. I still love the mod and everything.

 

[Leoreth]

Didn't come across as that at all. You've just managed to hit one of my pet peeves.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

About Jurchens, Leoreth.

Someone else initiated this idea (come claim the credit now), but I am firmly in agreement
that the Jurchens should only be included in limited capacity (aka Seljuk style) if they are included at all.
The problem with including them as a full-fledged civilization, is that anytime they've struck out
and became important, they self-assimilated and became representative of Chinese or (one could argue in some cases;
there is heated debate on Goguryeo's relation to Jurchens, I'm not taking a stance here.) Corean civilization when they've done so.
The Jin & Qing Dynasties are the most representative of this.
I also feel like we've reached a point where the Mongol to China balance on the mainland with the Corean variable included has reached a very fine balance.

 

[Leoreth]

Yeah, I think they are perfect to inherit the Celtia slot as a minor civ.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

I would suggest 2 waves; a la Seljuk around the time of the Jin Dynasty then.
While unlike others here, I actually like dealing with Seljuks, but two separate waves, to represent both Jin & Qing, is overkill.
At the very least, modern and pre-modern China (which can represent Qing just fine on its own) should be there most of the time on a 3000BC or 600AD start.

 

[Bonci]

Difference is between Italy and Germany (as I understand it) is that Italians themselves were never really very keen, nor had any need for, 'uniting' into one-Nation, unlike Germany. Much more than Prussia or even Spain, Italian unification was mostly just straight imperialism from Turin than any popular movement

Wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonari (South)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Provinces_of_Central_Italy (Center)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Days_of_Milan (North)

Sorry for the intermission

 

[mrrandomplayer]

I have mentioned this already, but what about Barbary Pirates as a minor civ to replace the Seljuks in the 1700 AD scenario? By 1710, Tunisia was basically independent of the Ottomans, so the dates could be stretched a little. It would be a major challenge for Turkey and it would just spam Privateers until someone kills them off. This is just a random idea that would prevent the Seljuk slot in 1700 AD from going to waste and make Mediterranean civs a bit more challenging.

 

[Leoreth]

I would suggest 2 waves; a la Seljuk around the time of the Jin Dynasty then.
While unlike others here, I actually like dealing with Seljuks, but two separate waves, to represent both Jin & Qing, is overkill.
At the very least, modern and pre-modern China (which can represent Qing just fine on its own) should be there most of the time on a 3000BC or 600AD start.

Yeah, China is the right civ to represent the Qing Dynasty. But I would want to keep the Manchu alive through the whole Industrial era, to keep Korea out of Manchuria.

I have mentioned this already, but what about Barbary Pirates as a minor civ to replace the Seljuks in the 1700 AD scenario? By 1710, Tunisia was basically independent of the Ottomans, so the dates could be stretched a little. It would be a major challenge for Turkey and it would just spam Privateers until someone kills them off. This is just a random idea that would prevent the Seljuk slot in 1700 AD from going to waste and make Mediterranean civs a bit more challenging.

I plan to change the Moors to represent the Barbary pirates instead. They usually survive long enough anyway.

 

[giant49er]

Yeah, I think they are perfect to inherit the Celtia slot as a minor civ.

It would be great to have the Jurchens as a minor civ, but doesn't the fact they take Celtia's slot mean that they can't spawn in the 3000 B.C.?

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Yeah, China is the right civ to represent the Qing Dynasty. But I would want to keep the Manchu alive through the whole Industrial era, to keep Korea out of Manchuria.

Why not give it to China then? It isn't as if the Manchus just completely abandoned their ancestral homeland.
Letting Qing China start with Harbin would only make a marginal difference.
Having both a Qing China and a separate Manchu entity alive at the same time strikes me as very odd.

@mrrandomplayer:

Let's not keep suggesting not-civs as inclusions for civs, please.
This isn't to be rude or anything, but this has been clearly outlined
and you continue to persist.

 

[Leoreth]

It would be great to have the Jurchens as a minor civ, but doesn't the fact they take Celtia's slot mean that they can't spawn in the 3000 B.C.?

Celtia should be dead by that point, or insignificant enough to replace them with independents (like, only Dublin). Reusing a slot is not a problem otherwise.

Why not give it to China then? It isn't as if the Manchus just completely abandoned their ancestral homeland.
Letting Qing China start with Harbin would only make a marginal difference.
Having both a Qing China and a separate Manchu entity alive at the same time strikes me as very odd.

Depends on how the game plays out I presume.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

All these possibilities can be encompassed with a single unit, a

Jurchen Cavalry

unit.

This unit would:

- Appear as Barbs and/or Celtic/Sejuk style indies to invade China at specific time periods (one wave at 1110AD, on wave at 1620AD);

- Be available as mercenaries in Manchuria between 1110AD and 1700AD;

- Be part of the starting army of China in the 1700AD Scenario.

This unit would be a Knight/Cuirassier replacement with Strength 11 and Withdrawal + Collateral Damage.

Incidentally I think the Keshik still needs buffs. An increase of its base Strength to 11 would be fair, actually.

 

[Novicenoble]

um

Adding Jurchen is good idea, but I suggest redesign of the Great wall wonder. It will be much less useful against 'civilization' barbs...

 

[Linkman226]

Can we hop off Italy, like, now please? It's not gonna happen. Italy is pretty much set in concrete. The whole region's only like twelve tiles in game; there's not much you can do with it. Go play RFCE or EUIII if you want to experience its finer geopolitical nuances.

As for the Seljuks: I thought the initial plan when the Seljuks were added like two years ago was to respawn them as the Timurids. It would give Iran a fighting chance.

So at this point I think the reasonable suggestions boil down to:
Seljuks--> Timurids
Some kind of Manchurian civ
East African civ

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Timurids are more Mongolian than Turkic, at least according to Timur himself. Actually one of Mongolia's DCN is Timurid Empire.

Timurids make more sense as a respawn of Mongolia, IMO, with Keshiks instead of Ghulam Warriors and the Mongol UP.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

um

Adding Jurchen is good idea, but I suggest redesign of the Great wall wonder. It will be much less useful against 'civilization' barbs...

In reality the Great Wall had ceased to be useful since about 300 CE.

Moreover in game if China has not secured a tech lead by the time of Jurchen spawn (1110 CE), the lack of a Great Wall would be the least of its worries.

 

[Pavel Chichikov]

Yeah, China is the right civ to represent the Qing Dynasty. But I would want to keep the Manchu alive through the whole Industrial era, to keep Korea out of Manchuria.


I plan to change the Moors to represent the Barbary pirates instead. They usually survive long enough anyway.

 

[phoenix_sprite]

Must ... resist ... all suggestions dealing with East Africa ...

Do... Not... resist...

Edit: I really liked your idea on respawning Arabia as Oman.

Oman
Spawn - 1600 or 1740
Leader(s) - Said bin Sultan Al-Said
UP: "Wealth of Africa" Luxury resources in Africa worked by you provide double the amount.
UB: Stone Fortress, either replaces Castle or Custom House (Can't think of more)
UU: Dhow - Replaces Galley, Only carries 1 unit, costs less and does not go obsolete, cannot be upgraded.
UHV: Acquire 10 slaves *by any means* by 1800, Gain x amount of gold through international trade (including the slave trade) by 1880, Control East Africa (perhaps including Madagascar here), the Arabian Peninsula and the Gulf of Persia by 1900.

Its starting capital could be Muscat, but I was playing with the idea of making another more modern Phoenician goal, make Zanzibar your capital by 1850. Of course, this is all a suggestion and could be elaborated on.

 

[Novicenoble]

In reality the Great Wall had ceased to be useful since about 300 CE.

Moreover in game if China has not secured a tech lead by the time of Jurchen spawn (1110 CE), the lack of a Great Wall would be the least of its worries.

Great wall had lost its function as a 'wall', but it still had function as an artificial obstacle that disabling large scale of horde invasion. Qing military forces could move over the Great wall quite easily, but they couldn't perform enough amount of operations. And they could destroy Ming completely after fall of laolongtou.

 

[mrrandomplayer]

@mrrandomplayer:

Let's not keep suggesting not-civs as inclusions for civs, please.
This isn't to be rude or anything, but this has been clearly outlined
and you continue to persist.

I am not suggesting a new civ, I'm suggesting using a vacated minor civ slot (Seljuk) for the 1700 AD slot, or like Leoreth said, as a respawn of the Moors.