pre-release info New First Look: Lafayette

[Zaarin]

Yes, I know, but the power of Lafayette is to give slots through endeavors. So I wanted to know wether those last the whole age, or just the 15 or so turns of the endevor?

My interpretation is that it's permanent, but I don't know.

 

[Lord Lakely]

That there are two African leaders plus one of African lineage.

Tubman does not count as an African leader. She was born in the States, fought her entire life for the rights of American slaves. Cleopatra was ethnically Greek and would never be considered a valid choice for Greece. Picking Tubman specifically for African representation is a very dubious decision. (but again, we DO need more leaders that TheSpaceCowboy has actually heard of.)

She's an American leader. A great choice at that, but her inclusion does not substitute the lack of African representation.

Africa does have three leaders, but the third one is actually Ibn Battuta, who is Moroccan Berber.

 

[TheSpaceCowboy]

It would be pretty hard to do Casimir Pulaski if historians keep going back and forth whether or not he was a woman, intersex or whatever (I don't care one way or the other as he is a pretty cool character, but Im sure in this political/culture war clime, probably not the best idea).

Any 'historians' who makes this argument are no historians at all; they're colonizers of the past who wish to impose the theories and ideologies of the present onto a culture for whom such ideas would be completely alien
Regarding Pulaski, I'll quote the ever pithy Austin Powers: "That's a man, baby!"
Moderator Action: Warned for trolling. The_J

 

[local_hero]

As France is one of my favourite civs, I'm very excited to see Lafayette and his abilites. I was resigned to having to settle with Napoleon for a long time (potentially "forever") as neither of his persona excite me at all.

How many leaders are left now? I'd also like to see some more non-European leaders.

 

[Zaarin]

Any 'historians' who makes this argument are no historians at all; they're colonizers of the past who wish to impose the theories and ideologies of the present onto a culture for whom such ideas would be completely alien

There is evidence that Casimir Pulaski was either female or intersex based on his mitochondrial DNA and analysis of his remains. That's not "colonization of the past"; being born with ambiguous genitalia is not something that suddenly appeared in the 20th century. Women disguising themselves as men to fight is also not a new notion. Joan of Arc did it. Many women did it in both the American Revolution and the American Civil War. Shakespeare wrote a comedy about it.

 

[Lord Lakely]

Actually, the underrepresented continent is easily Asia. We have: a token Chinese leader, a token Indian leader, a token Japanese leader, a token Persian leader and a token SEA leader. That's about as close to a bare minimum as it gets. We still don't have anyone representing Central Asia, the Turks or Mesopotamia. I hope the last unrevealed leader is someone that does.

America is also looking bleak with it's 4.5 leaders, 2.5 of which are America-adjacent, but the choices there are generally more inspired and interesting.

 

[Inhalaattori]

As France is one of my favourite civs, I'm very excited to see Lafayette and his abilites. I was resigned to having to settle with Napoleon for a long time (potentially "forever") as neither of his persona excite me at all.

How many leaders are left now? I'd also like to see some more non-European leaders.

There are 3 leaders + 2 personas left that we dont know. We do know Himiko is in game, but we dont know her abilities.

 

[Lord Lakely]

As France is one of my favourite civs, I'm very excited to see Lafayette and his abilites. I was resigned to having to settle with Napoleon for a long time (potentially "forever") as neither of his persona excite me at all.

How many leaders are left now? I'd also like to see some more non-European leaders.

there are five first looks left:

- Himiko
- Napoleon
- Catherine the Great
- Frederick the Great
- and we do not know who the fifth leader is

 

[Mudkip1001]

Any 'historians' who makes this argument are no historians at all; they're colonizers of the past who wish to impose the theories and ideologies of the present onto a culture for whom such ideas would be completely alien
Regarding Pulaski, I'll quote the ever pithy Austin Powers: "That's a man, baby!"

While I personally agree with you and I don't really believe their claims, I doubt Firaxis really wants to stir the pot, also the real reason probably is Firaxis wouldn't want to make a Polish Civ at launch (as Poland always makes for a good DLC expansion pack civ)

 

[Zaarin]

Actually, the underrepresented continent is easily Asia. We have: a token Chinese leader, a token Indian leader, a token Japanese leader, a token Persian leader and a token SEA leader. That's about as close to a bare minimum as it gets.

Agreed.

America is also looking bleak with it's 4.5 leaders, 2.5 of which are America-adjacent, but the choices there are generally more inspired and interesting.

Indigenous America is a little disappointing with the lack of Mesoamerican leader. I do get they chose Pachacuti so they could attach the mountain bonuses to him instead of just the Inca, which was clever, but the lack of Mayan leader still stings.

There are 3 leaders + 2 personas left that we dont know. We do know Himiko is in game, but we dont know her abilities.

If you accept the ESRB leak, it's only one we don't know: Himiko (confirmed), Napoleon (confirmed), Frederick the Great (implied), Catherine the Great (implied), and one unknown. Three of them (including Napoleon) will have personae.

 

[local_hero]

Actually, the underrepresented continent is easily Asia. We have: a token Chinese leader, a token Indian leader, a token Japanese leader, a token Persian leader and a token SEA leader. That's about as close to a bare minimum as it gets. We still don't have anyone representing Central Asia, the Turks or Mesopotamia. I hope the last unrevealed leader is someone that does.

America is also looking bleak with it's 4.5 leaders, 2.5 of which are America-adjacent, but the choices there are generally more inspired and interesting.

I don't understand the stick Confucius gets. He hasn't been in a Civilization game yet and is arguably the single person who has shaped Chinese culture the most?

 

[Zaarin]

I don't understand the stick Confucius gets. He hasn't been in a Civilization game yet and is arguably the single person who has shaped Chinese culture the most?

I think it's a combination of the fact that he's a bit of a stereotype in Western culture ("Confucius say [insert fortune cookie ice cream koan here]") and that China has no shortage of interesting personalities to draw from. He consequently feels a little generic.

 

[Lord Lakely]

Indigenous America is a little disappointing with the lack of Mesoamerican leader. I do get they chose Pachacuti so they could attach the mountain bonuses to him instead of just the Inca, which was clever, but the lack of Mayan leader still stings.

The Mayans are very close to a leaderless Civ for me. They're historically prominent, but it's not know how important each City State was, and if you don't know that it's difficult to pick a leader for them without defaulting into Pacal, whose records are the best preserved.

But yes, just Tecumseh and Pachacuti is... dodgy, even if Franklin/Tubman/Lafayette are great choices in a vacuum. I wouldn't mind having a Montezuma or an Anacoana thrown into the mix, but I think Asia is starved for leaders and should take priority for now.

 

[Zaarin]

The Mayans are very close to a leaderless Civ for me. They're historically prominent, but it's not know how important each City State was, and if you don't know that it's difficult to pick a leader for them without defaulting into Pacal, whose records are the best preserved.

K'inich Janaab' Pakal was precisely who I had in mind, though. He's as big personality as it gets for Pre-Columbian leaders. Though, although we know less about them, there are about half a dozen female options for the Maya, which is rather unusual and how we got Lady Six Sky in Civ6. But Pakal would make me quite happy. (I assume Monty is inevitable sooner or later, too, but...I want a not-Monty leader. )

 

[Evie]

May that last slot go to someone else that actually challenge many of us with new things to learn.

Anyone who think that they know all history that is worth knowing, knows nothing.

(As to leaderless civ, granted, not having 2.5 American and 1.5 French leaders would help, but there were always going to be leaderless civs)

 

[Lord Lakely]

I don't understand the stick Confucius gets. He hasn't been in a Civilization game yet and is arguably the single person who has shaped Chinese culture the most?

oh I call him a "token Chinese" leader specifically because he's the only Chinese leader we got. He was added to lead China. That's his in-game role. Compare that to the plethora of European leaders such as Macchiavelli and Lafayette which have been chosen for their potential abilities or name recognition without being token leaders of a specific Civ.

The only way to fix that is by eventually introducing a second leader for the major Asian Civilizations. The fact that the devs haven't, yet keep churning out Euro leaders creats an imbalance.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Tubman does not count as an African leader. She was born in the States, fought her entire life for the rights of American slaves. Cleopatra was ethnically Greek and would never be considered a valid choice for Greece. Picking Tubman specifically for African representation is a very dubious decision. (but again, we DO need more leaders that TheSpaceCowboy has actually heard of.)

She's an American leader. A great choice at that, but her inclusion does not substitute the lack of African representation.

Africa does have three leaders, but the third one is actually Ibn Battuta, who is Moroccan Berber.

Agreed. Tubman is an American, born, raised, and by loyalty. She is not a leader from Africa.

 

[Zaarin]

(As to leaderless civ, granted, not having 2.5 American and 1.5 French leaders would help, but there were always going to be leaderless civs)

I agree, and I think that's fine. I don't even mind that some leaders like Amina and Trung Trac are adjacent to the civs they're associated with. But more Asian--especially West Asian--leaders would be nice, plus someone from Mesoamerica. (Doesn't even have to be Mayan. Throw in Eight Deer Jaguar Claw. No one can complain about someone with such an awesome name. Or Spearthrower Owl.)

 

[Lord Lakely]

K'inich Janaab' Pakal was precisely who I had in mind, though. He's as big personality as it gets for Pre-Columbian leaders. Though, although we know less about them, there are about half a dozen female options for the Maya, which is rather unusual and how we got Lady Six Sky in Civ6. But Pakal would make me quite happy. (I assume Monty is inevitable sooner or later, too, but...I want a not-Monty leader. )

Itzcoatl
Axayacatl
Chuautemoc.

There are options. You don't even have to go Aztec. Let's go for Sor Juana or that Purépecha princes whose name I'm forgetting right now.

 

[Mudkip1001]

There is evidence that Casimir Pulaski was either female or intersex based on his mitochondrial DNA and analysis of his remains. That's not "colonization of the past"; being born with ambiguous genitalia is not something that suddenly appeared in the 20th century. Women disguising themselves as men to fight is also not a new notion. Joan of Arc did it. Many women did it in both the American Revolution and the American Civil War. Shakespeare wrote a comedy about it.

These references was written after the 2019 report in I believe you are referencing (2020), sorry to throw the book (in this case the Wikipedia page), I'd have to read more into it to see if anything has changed in the last 5 years, I think the debate is probably ongoing.