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New Version - June 2nd (6-2)

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Gazebo, Jun 2, 2019.

  1. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Having followed the last several points, I'll admit to being completely confused about how the current system is working. And I don't want to discuss further changes until we all are 100% aware of how its working.

    I am aware of the following entities:

    1) UnHappiness determined by needs.
    2) UnHappiness capped by type (only X% can be from distress, Y% from poverty, etc).
    3) UnHappiness capped by total population
    4) UnHappiness reduced by 1 with certain buildings.

    But I am not clear how these entities currently work together, and in which order. @Gazebo, can you walk us through a really good example of how the system is utilizing each of these pieces, and show us when the caps are applying, when they are not....and then ultimately how the UI is showing them? I know you did one earlier but I'll admit I am still very confused.
     
  2. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    You're right. I was reading it wrong, thinking it was showing the same values as the previous betas. It might be my fault, but it's true that this can't be clear to someone unfamiliar with the system.
     
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  3. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Aha! I see the confusion. To note, it’s not capped. There is no cap. The ‘real’ value is simply the unmodified unhappiness from a yield, and the reduction is the effect of buildings built in the city.

    Well technically the cap is your total population. But you get the idea. So yields do matter, quite a bit. The current build shows that especially, as the needs modifiers are much lower. ‘Throwing it all out’ is absurd. I abhor defeatism.

    G
     
  4. Rekk

    Rekk Chieftain

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    People unfamiliar with the system don't need to know how it works, the UI just needs to tell them how to deal with their unhappiness.

    The system @Gazebo gave us a glimpse of tells you these things:
    • How many total yields of a given need you are missing. This is the Deficit.
    • How much unhappiness that deficit is creating, and how much is being reduced by need reduction buildings. This is the Actual X :c5unhappy: / Reduced by Y.
    • How many yields you need to add to reduce unhappiness from a need by one. This is the (X from unhappy :c5citizen:).
     
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  5. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    I’m on mobile today hard to type lots of stuff. But in short I’ll note that 2 is not a thing. There isn’t an artificial cap. Cap is pop only.

    G
     
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  6. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    When people start throwing around the words ‘total rework’ and ‘throw out needs system’ I consider that ‘throwing everything out.’ The recentish change to localized happiness was actually pretty trivial code wise. Hardly a total rework.

    I posted Ui point for feedback. So explicit rundowns of what you don’t understand would be helpful. Vague comments are hard to actualize.

    G
     
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  7. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    Thanks. X from unhappy people can be obtained dividing the deficit value by the total unhappy people from this need.
    In illiteracy 2
    Deficit 8 (4 per unhappy pop)
    This is like saying that for every 4 deficit points, one citizen gets unhappy from illiteracy. Not sure if this this is simply a derivated value.
     
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  8. Moi Magnus

    Moi Magnus Warlord

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    The point of my suggestion, which Gazebo said he will try to implement, is to replace "X from unhappy" (which is deficit divided by unhappiness) by the actual needed to reduce the unhappiness need by one (which I called "X for -1 :c5unhappy:")
     
  9. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Completely understand, take your time and do it right. I just think that any further discussion on this issue should be halted until you have had the chance to show us. We are all arguing from ignorance, which never generates fruitful ideas.
     
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  10. Rekk

    Rekk Chieftain

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    The underlying system works as follows:
    1. For a given need, a city requires X yields per :c5citizen:. This is determined by the global median plus any modifiers that city has (empire size, tech, etc).
    2. For every 0.25* yields per :c5citizen: that a city does not meet, that need produces 1 unhappiness. There is no cap to the amount of unhappiness this can create.This is reported as Actual.
      Eg. If we only produce 1 :c5gold: per :c5citizen:, and the need is 4:c5gold: per :c5citizen:, then poverty produces 12:c5unhappy:.
    3. Multiply the missing yields per :c5citizen: by :c5citizen: to get the Deficit. It is purely informational. The line also states how many yields is required to reduce unhappiness by 1, reported in X per unhappy :c5citizen:. This is also purely informational, and somewhat inaccurate.
      Eg. If we have a population of 10, then our deficit is 3:c5gold:/:c5citizen:*10:c5citizen: = 30:c5gold: (2.5 per unhappy :c5citizen:).
    4. Buildings can reduce the unhappiness produced from a yield/source. The reduction is reported in Reduced by X and the modified result is reported in X from <yield/source>. It may be further reduced in #5. It does not modify the deficit line.
      Eg. If the city has an aqueduct, then poverty is only producing 11:c5unhappy:.
    5. Total unhappiness has a cap of city population. Unhappiness follows a hierarchy, with a source higher on the the list being added before a source lower in the list (including unhappiness from all sources, not just needs). If the sum of all (modified by buildings) unhappiness is greater than the population, then unhappiness sources at the bottom of the list (starting with boredom) are reduced until unhappiness is equal to the population. When boredom is reduced to zero and unhappiness is still higher than population, then illiteracy is reduced, etc. This is the final number in X from <yield/source>.
      Eg. If we have 3 distress, then our 10:c5citizen: city will have 3:c5unhappy: from distress and 7:c5unhappy: from poverty (reduced from 11). All other unhappiness sources have been reduced to zero (assuming zero raw unhappiness sources set between distress and poverty).
    6. Sum all unhappiness entries to get total unhappiness produced by the city.
      Eg. We have 10:c5unhappy:.
    Edits: fixing some formatting to try and make it easier to read.

    * Current value as per this post.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
  11. Rekk

    Rekk Chieftain

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    It is simply a derived value. It overestimates how much is actually required, assuming the unhappiness isn't being modified by anything, and gets more inaccurate as the unhappiness for that need gets further away from its actual unhappiness.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
  12. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Reading in a hurry but this looks spot on.
     
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  13. Rekk

    Rekk Chieftain

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    During normal play, #5 should not be necessary. The system is not meant to have unhappiness maximized, as both yields and unhappiness reduction buildings become meaningless, causing us to revert to Vanilla unhappiness mechanics.
     
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  14. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Thank you Rekk, this makes more sense. Just confirming, I thought Urbanization was now at the bottom of the pile, so it would be dropped before boredom would it not?
     
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  15. Rekk

    Rekk Chieftain

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    It doesn't matter where Urbanization falls. If you have maximized unhappiness, you won't have any spare happiness to use on specialists in the first place. Local happiness is capped at population size just like unhappiness. In our 10:c5citizen: example, the best we can do is 10 local :c5happy:, which when compared to whatever combination of sources creating the max 10:c5unhappy:, results in a net of 0, disallowing any specialists other than free ones.

    So yes, urbanization is always reduced first, but only because the city stops working specialists.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
  16. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Urbanization is calculated last, not first.

    G
     
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  17. Revolutionist_8

    Revolutionist_8 Chieftain

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    It's very informative, thank you!

    I strongly support @Moi Magnus 's idea to the UI. When I'm playing and facing a challenge, I'm interested in how can I solve it explained as briefly as possible: e.g. I have 3 Unhappiness from Poverty? How can I solve it? *hovering over Unhappiness in City view* Ahha! I need 10 more Gold in this City to eradicate it all! Nice, I'm going to assign some Specialists / build Villages / whatever. I have a clear solution to the problem and I can find it just a "hovering away". Awesome!

    I personally think that the shift to the Local Happiness system is one of the best things that ever happened to this mod! :love:
     
  18. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    Now, now. All the magic is happening underneath then.

    How's 'actual' calculated?
    0.25 * (MedianEfficiency * modifiers - City Efficiency) - Reduce?
     
  19. Txurce

    Txurce Warlord

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    That's exactly where the magic should take place. No exceptions whatsoever.
     
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  20. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    However (whatsoever) we testers need to know if it is working as designed, and be able to detect design flaws.
     

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