New Version - June 2nd (6-2)

[Gazebo]

Next time Bursa grows it gains +4 each Distress and Poverty, but -2 each Illiteracy and Boredom. So it's expected to have:
6 Distress, 5 Poverty, 0 Religious Division, 0 Illiteracy and 0 Boredom.

If the city had a barracks, it would have:
5 Distress, 5 Poverty, 1 Religious Division, 0 Illiteracy, 0 Boredom
Or:
5 Distress, 6 Poverty, 0 Religious Division, 0 Illiteracy and 0 Boredom, if Poverty is being capped.

How much worse Illiteracy and Boredom will become is hidden, and you won't find out until you either grow, or mitigate the Distress and Poverty preemptively.

We are currently producing 6.8 / and have a deficit of 6 which means that current needs are 12.8, or 1.3 / . If we grow, then our total needs will be 14.3 while we still are predicted to only have 6.8.

I can't figure how the unhappiness is calculated off of the deficit. It seems like gaining 3 / (ie a total of 6 split between the two) will alleviate 1 unhappiness, but I don't know how that 3 was calculated in the first place.

For simplicity, the 'on growth' function assumes that the current city yields will not change. So it's a worst case scenario (i.e. if you go from 12-13 pop, it assumes that the new pop does nothing until you assign it). This allows the player to see which yield median will be hit hardest by growth, but it is not necessarily indicative of the real difference.

G

 

[tothePAIN]

One question about the change in culture/tech cost calculation:
What happens, if a civ lose the last non-puppet city?
I know its a rare case, but wat happens, if I conquer the capital of Venice? Is a puppet city automatically chosen as capital and get unpuppeted? Would it be possible to reduce the multiplier to zero?

I've taken Venice's capital - the capital shifts to a puppet city and becomes no longer a puppet. Even for Venice.

 

[pineappledan]

@Gazebo, what’s your timeline for when you were thinking of adding those 2 custom civs? I’m guessing that’s going to push gold back, since you’ll have to balance them, and it seemed like you were aiming to be finished with VP this year?

 

[Rekk]

For simplicity, the 'on growth' function assumes that the current city yields will not change. So it's a worst case scenario (i.e. if you go from 12-13 pop, it assumes that the new pop does nothing until you assign it). This allows the player to see which yield median will be hit hardest by growth, but it is not necessarily indicative of the real difference.

G

That's apparent.

I'm trying to figure out how unhappiness is calculated from the deficit (which I understand from this screenshot to be total yields missing). Bursa isn't missing 2 / per , so unhappiness no longer seems to be directly proportional to missing yields per .

Edit: Distress isn't the best need to look at from this. I forgot that the Food line item is the net food after consumption.

 

[Gazebo]

@Gazebo, what’s your timeline for when you were thinking of adding those 2 custom civs? I’m guessing that’s going to push gold back, since you’ll have to balance them, and it seemed like you were aiming to be finished with VP this year?

Real life: I'm in the process of moving a very long distance (end of this month) - that plus work plus general life has thrown off my plans a bit. I'd say post-move things open up, but not until July at the very earliest (more likely August).

G

 

[Txurce]

Real life: I'm in the process of moving a very long distance (end of this month) - that plus work plus general life has thrown off my plans a bit. I'd say post-move things open up, but not until July at the very earliest (more likely August).

G

Where are you moving?

 

[Gazebo]

That's apparent.

I'm trying to figure out how unhappiness is calculated from the deficit (which I understand from this screenshot to be total yields missing). Bursa isn't missing 2 / per , so unhappiness no longer seems to be directly proportional to missing yields per .

Edit: Distress isn't the best need to look at from this. I forgot that the Food line item is the net food after consumption.

It is still directly proportional, but the proportion is now 25 (was 100). This is to compensate for the major reduction in modifiers, and to make smaller shifts in yields more noticeable within the happiness function.

G

 

[Gazebo]

Where are you moving?

Arkansas! Quite the change in scenery.

g

 

[Rekk]

@Gazebo, what’s your timeline for when you were thinking of adding those 2 custom civs? I’m guessing that’s going to push gold back, since you’ll have to balance them, and it seemed like you were aiming to be finished with VP this year?

Where did this discussion take place?

 

[chicorbeef]

I think the specialist cap due to unhappiness is kind of clunky, I think it discourages too much, which is already not that great a yield, it adds extra unnecessary micromanagement and population management and I don't quite understand the point of it if we are going to be buffing Specialists to make up for it anyway. We've already had our fair share of specialist nerfs and nerfs to population growth over the last year or so and I don't understand why we need to nerf this further.

Also, RIP Babylon walls. And double RIP Lugh the Skilled One (this pantheon got wrecked....)

 

[pineappledan]

Real life: I'm in the process of moving a very long distance (end of this month) - that plus work plus general life has thrown off my plans a bit. I'd say post-move things open up, but not until July at the very earliest (more likely August).

Cool cool. I more wanted to know if that idea had been abandoned, since it was floated 7 months ago.

Where did this discussion take place?

https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...bility-discussion.635371/page-3#post-15283080

 

[Txurce]

Arkansas! Quite the change in scenery.

g

My wife is from there. If you don't mind the heat and humidity, it's beautiful. And it has quite a few good schools in the Little Rock area. Is that where you're going?

 

[Rekk]

It is still directly proportional, but the proportion is now 25 (was 100). This is to compensate for the major reduction in modifiers, and to make smaller shifts in yields more noticeable within the happiness function.

G

I'll try boredom instead of distress since the numbers are more readily available.

Bursa produces 7 culture and has a deficit of 8 for a total need of 15 , or 1.5 /. We only produce 0.7 /, or (1.5 - 0.7) / 0.25 = 3.2 increments away...? Is it being rounded to the nearest whole number now? Maybe the actual need is between 1.41-1.45/ and the deficit is 7.1-7.5, rounded up to 8?

If I'm doing this correctly, then my next observation is that (X per Unhappy ) seems to be meaningless once unhappiness reduction comes into play. Boredom reduction means that I can float a deficit of 0.25 / or 2 total without having any Boredom. That means I only need to gain 3 per unhappy to reduce from Boredom by 1.

 

[Gazebo]

I'll try boredom instead of distress since the numbers are more readily available.

Bursa produces 7 culture and has a deficit of 8 for a total need of 15 , or 1.5 /. We only produce 0.7 /, or (1.5 - 0.7) / 0.25 = 3.2 increments away...? Is it being rounded to the nearest whole number now? Maybe the actual need is 1.45/ and the deficit is 7.5, rounded up to 8?

If I'm doing this correctly, then my next observation is that (X per Unhappy ) seems to be meaningless once unhappiness reduction comes into play. Boredom reduction means that I can float a deficit of 0.25 / or 2 total without having any Boredom. That means I only need to gain 3 per unhappy to reduce from Boredom by 1.

X per unhappy is still helpful, in that it shows you what you need to make to reduce your deficit by 1 at the minimum. The accuracy does decrease as your reduction grows, but it’s still a reliable minimum value.

G

 

[Rekk]

X per unhappy is still helpful, in that it shows you what you need to make to reduce your deficit by 1 at the minimum. The accuracy does decrease as your reduction grows, but it’s still a reliable minimum value.

G

Meaningless was the wrong word, sorry.

a 20 city with 3 distress reducers, reduces the total deficit by 15. If I have 6 unhappiness from distress, reduced from 9, then I have a deficit of 45 ( 7.5 per unhappy ), but only need 5 to decrease unhappiness from distress by 1. Why not choose to use the actual unhappiness as a basis instead of the modified? Because this information is on the deficit line?

 

[Takagi Hiro]

See how things feel after you play the update. For what it's worth 'removes the pop modifier for unhappiness' is another change that was mentioned.

I wouldn't bank too much on changes to urbanisation though.

Urbanization itself is fine to me. My gripes with it have mainly been for tradition and especially its early game. Your specialists are fundamental to your start, yet you're often unable to assign them. That's not to mention it makes some religious pantheons much less ideal. Korea, notably, wants to be working their specialists nearly constantly alongside some great tile improvements, but struggles to do this in anything that isn't their capital in the early game especially. It's quite worrying to see them take such a hit, and it even made me wonder if having one free specialist in every tradition city would make for a viable solution.

Also, remember that the people working on VP do it because they want to and are not being paid. They don't need sarcasm or hyperbole when getting feedback.

Yes, you're right. I do have to apologize; I had a very awful day yesterday and while I wasn't aiming to seek confrontation, I can definitely see where there was some unnecessary snark. I stand by my points, however, and apologize to everyone this may have sat poorly with.

 

[Gazebo]

Meaningless was the wrong word, sorry.

a 20 city with 3 distress reducers, reduces the total deficit by 15. If I have 6 unhappiness from distress, reduced from 9, then I have a deficit of 45 ( 7.5 per unhappy ), but only need 5 to decrease unhappiness from distress by 1. Why not choose to use the actual unhappiness as a basis instead of the modified? Because this information is on the deficit line?

Correct - I could do that, but I think it would muddy the info.

G

 

[pineappledan]

Urbanization itself is fine to me. My gripes with it have mainly been for tradition and especially its early game. Your specialists are fundamental to your start, yet you're often unable to assign them. That's not to mention it makes some religious pantheons much less ideal. Korea, notably, wants to be working their specialists nearly constantly alongside some great tile improvements, but struggles to do this in anything that isn't their capital in the early game especially. It's quite worrying to see them take such a hit, and it even made me wonder if having one free specialist in every tradition city would make for a viable solution.

Wasn't there a plan to add 1 specialist does not generate urbanization unhappiness to the palace? Maybe G could reduce the Throne Room Tradition finisher from 2 down to 1 free specialist to compensate?

 

[JamesNinelives]

Wasn't there a plan to add 1 specialist does not generate urbanization unhappiness to the palace? Maybe G could reduce the Throne Room Tradition finisher from 2 down to 1 free specialist to compensate?

That was discussed, yes.

I agree that being unable to work specialists early game is rather frustrating. Sometimes you also get a tradition capital with like 5 pop which can't work its first specialist, at least for a little while. Maybe it would be good to have 1 free specialist from the palace, or from some early building so that each city can have one?

I think the Palace makes sense.

I imagine that is something that is in the works at the moment.

 

[John.B.C]

Interface changes in upcoming version:

View attachment 526362

Astute observers will notice a few other things as well.

G

I might even be able to understand this new interface! Let's see if I got things right. For instance, it says 2 unhappiness from boredom; 3 actual, deficit 8 - reduced by 1. So this means that the city doesn't have 3 unhappy people due to boredom, because it has built a building like the arena which reduces a bored citizen by -1?