New Zealand Terror Attack

[Zardnaar]

I hope so, context of the offense is obviously important, but it clearly should not be legal to on or distribute a film such as this.

It's illegal to own, viewing they won't bother to much. If you have it it's expected you delete it.

The video perhaps can be tucked away in the national archives or academic institution its part of history now but it doesn't need to be around IMHO.

 

[Estebonrober]

I'm not entirely sure where I fall on "snuff films". I have an active aversion to them, yet suspect we lose something by covering up what happens at events like this. The facts of what happened, the real brutality, even how reactions influence outcome. A friend of mine recently tried to share a video of people dying in a night club fire. I chose not to watch it, because I've seen similar in the past. It happens fast, people panic and die or kill others directly because of that panic.

It's sort of like the Jim Sterling video where he showed graphical video game violence, and then a real clip of someone using a pistol to commit suicide in the "fantasy vs real" discussion wrt video games "causing violence". That was really jarring. Will we really be better off for not having access to that insight? I don't think so actually.

Censoring discussion about this guy's motivations I fall soundly on "authoritarian" but that's less a NZ thing and more a general censorship issue.

Well I guess that clears that up sadly. If you lack imagination so much that you require to see humans literally dying to understand something then you are truly lost as a rational human. Fwiw I get the impulse, our entire media is built on the emotional hormonal flux one gets by viewing such nonsense. There should be lines though, this is clearly one of them.

 

[Camikaze]

Also: eggs

But yeah, given eggs can barely count as violence, that's been a lot more effective than any sort of antifa physical resistance would be. I think everyone agrees that eggs are going to be more effective than fists.

And to the extent that physical resistance is just a bad strategy, then it seems its primary purpose is as some sort of catharsis for (justifiably) angry people.

 

[Lexicus]

It seems that the local left wing gets the casus belli to wave their fists at Nazis while giving them the "poor nazis being threatened" appeal. Why does every extremist act first and think later ?

But what kind of person looks at....anything really and thinks "poor nazis being threatened"? ....nazis?

And to the extent that physical resistance is just a bad strategy, then it seems its primary purpose is as some sort of catharsis for (justifiably) angry people.

It's not necessarily a bad strategy. It may be a bad strategy against today's pale imitation Nazis who aren't actually organized into paramilitary street gangs and attacking people or running protection riots, but in a context like that physical resistance up to and including lethal violence is perfectly appropriate imo.

 

[El_Machinae]

I don't think anybody here is okay with any of the acts in question. Punishing people who weren't directly involved for possession/viewing of them is another matter though.

To be fair, I'm focusing on the distribution aspect.

Of all the people involved in the making of that video, I see no need why his distribution wishes should be the ones that we respect

 

[Zardnaar]

But what kind of person looks at....anything really and thinks "poor nazis being threatened"? ....nazis?



It's not necessarily a bad strategy. It may be a bad strategy against today's pale imitation Nazis who aren't actually organized into paramilitary street gangs and attacking people or running protection riots, but in a context like that physical resistance up to and including lethal violence is perfectly appropriate imo.

No one really feels sorry for the Nazis but would rather not have them assaulted in public if they are not doing anything violent. Would rather have them marching in the streets peacefully even if they are waving swastikas.
Banning that won't change anything it's just gonna drive it underground and they will stew in Stormfront or whatever.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Well I guess that clears that up sadly. If you lack imagination so much that you require to see humans literally dying to understand something then you are truly lost as a rational human. Fwiw I get the impulse, our entire media is built on the emotional hormonal flux one gets by viewing such nonsense. There should be lines though, this is clearly one of them.

Imagination doesn't always measure up to reality, as I learned. I doubt unless you experience such a situation directly or view it that it's actually comprehensible to most people. Like chainsawing someone in gears can be fun, but even a single shot real suicide elicits revulsion. When it comes to truly dangerous situations, seeing how people react can inform decisions. Routine fire drills vs what happens if people know there's a real fire nearby are a joke.

You can keep your imagination. When people's lives are on the line I don't want to guess.

But what kind of person looks at....anything really and thinks "poor nazis being threatened"? ....nazis?

You'd have to sift through hundreds of people radical left wingers think to be nazis to find (maybe) one actual nazi. It's not that one guy people feel for.

To be fair, I'm focusing on the distribution aspect.

Fair enough. In that regard I'd expect similar enforcement of this as any other. Distributors have an annoying habit of being in different countries when it comes to this sort of thing though, so it's not going to move the needle much in terms of how many actual eyes witness the video. At least, I don't anticipate that it would.

 

[Traitorfish]

Totalitarian regime or on it's way. Fighting the police/army/secret police etc doesn't really work.

Its up to you, fighting generally escalates arguably doesn't work.

Escalates beyond war? Beyond genocide? What is this worst-case scenario you're trying to avoid, which fascists haven't proven themselves entirely capable of bringing about of their own initiative?

One issue that I have is that the people who insist you can't be violent against fascists seem to have no problem with so much other, and imo less justifiable violence.

Case in point: "let the police deal with it" is a much more direct appeal to violence than most anti-fascist activists will make.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Escalates beyond war? Beyond genocide? What is this worst-case scenario you're trying to avoid, which fascists haven't proven themselves entirely capable of bringing about of their own initiative?

Right now, it's generally not "fascists" that are on streets in wide spread numbers threatening people and causing physical harm + property damage. As in if you found 100+ people doing this the vast majority would not be "fascists".

 

[Lexicus]

You'd have to sift through hundreds of people radical left wingers think to be nazis to find (maybe) one actual nazi. It's not that one guy people feel for.

Is that right?

Can you point out the one Nazi out of hundreds in this photo?

 

[Estebonrober]

Imagination doesn't always measure up to reality, as I learned. I doubt unless you experience such a situation directly or view it that it's actually comprehensible to most people. Like chainsawing someone in gears can be fun, but even a single shot real suicide elicits revulsion. When it comes to truly dangerous situations, seeing how people react can inform decisions. Routine fire drills vs what happens if people know there's a real fire nearby are a joke.

You can keep your imagination. When people's lives are on the line I don't want to guess.



You'd have to sift through hundreds of people radical left wingers think to be nazis to find (maybe) one actual nazi. It's not that one guy people feel for.



Fair enough. In that regard I'd expect similar enforcement of this as any other. Distributors have an annoying habit of being in different countries when it comes to this sort of thing though, so it's not going to move the needle much in terms of how many actual eyes witness the video. At least, I don't anticipate that it would.

No no this keeps getting better and better. You're "point" for snuff films is their educational value? watching people burn and trample each other is . . .what? supposed to make people handle a real life fire situation better next time? Think that makes sense? Seriously. . .This discussion is over. Go on then.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Is that right?

Can you point out the one Nazi out of hundreds in this photo?

I was speaking on statistical scales.

Though if they congregate doesn't that make things easier?

No no this keeps getting better and better. You're "point" for snuff films is their educational value? watching people burn and trample each other is . . .what? supposed to make people handle a real life fire situation better next time? Think that makes sense? Seriously. . .This discussion is over. Go on then.

If you opt to argue points over moral grandstanding let me know. For now I'm okay with not "discussing" more, given this post.

 

[rah]

Looks like a normal group of frat boys out on a Friday night looking to party to me.

 

[Traitorfish]

Right now, it's generally not "fascists" that are on streets in wide spread numbers threatening people and causing physical harm + property damage. As in if you found 100+ people doing this the vast majority would not be "fascists".

Zardnaar has asserted that, in a scenario in which the security apparatus is sympathetic to (or has been outright co-opted by) non-ambiguous fascists, passivity is preferable to resistance. Whether or not we currently inhabit such a scenario, or are likely to in the visible future, is not the substance of this disagreement.

 

[Lexicus]

Looks like a normal group of frat boys out on a Friday night looking to party to me.

It's funny because the overlap between "frat boys" and "nazis" is probably a lot higher than you'd think

 

[Farm Boy]

To be fair, I'm focusing on the distribution aspect.

True. You are. Darn important there. But is distribution what people are going for, or did the paint-chip-belligerent, jail-the-naughty-doodlers, my-mom-drank take the stage and the only alternative is to "be" a nazi "sympathizer."

 

[rah]

It's funny because the overlap between "frat boys" and "nazis" is probably a lot higher than you'd think

Actually, probably not.

 

[El_Machinae]

The main divide is deciding whether or not he committed a sufficient atrocity such that banning its distribution and possession is warranted.

The problem is also that someone's wishes regarding the distribution is being actualized. It's a self-published atrocity, with the intent to distribute. It's a hard crossbars to thread, whether or not only his wishes are respected with regards to the distribution, or if the rest of the participants and victims get a say.

As I said, either he is incredibly clever, or our standards are too sensitive

 

[Farm Boy]

Distribution and possession, despite the drug war providing ample lessons, are jammed together too frequently.

Maybe NZ gets a pass there with their quiet country, non-existent drug wars, and no protections of expression?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Zardnaar has asserted that, in a scenario in which the security apparatus is sympathetic to (or has been outright co-opted by) non-ambiguous fascists, passivity is preferable to resistance. Whether or not we currently inhabit such a scenario, or are likely to in the visible future, is not the substance of this disagreement.

I see. I'd favor resistance, either by leaving that governing body entirely or ousting it, whichever is safer/more practical.

Of course it's non-trivial to have a for-sure conclusion of "non-ambiguous fascists", and somewhat more trivial to conclude that a particular security apparatus is sufficiently bad so as to be unworthy regardless.

As I said, either he is incredibly clever, or our standards are too sensitive

This guy doesn't strike me as particularly clever.