Officer Dragged And Threw A Student Across The Floor

[Daw]

Close.

OK, public school matches what I know the best. Budget funding, parents complaining about every penny the school asks them for, standard education program, formally encouraged parental involvement into school life that seldom actually happens.

Such schools are common here. Private schools are luxury, parochial schools are missing in the form they are in the USA, religious schools are exotic and are busy with religious stuff (it's a ticking bomb I think, but it'll blow up later and it's a different story).

How common are Public schools in the US? Is it like normal to go there or is it like some kind of misfortune?

It is customary that parents and teachers meet and talk.

Okay, that's good news already.

Now to the two things.

I'm sure that there are parents who do not follow the custom, skipping the scheduled conferences and grumbling about how teachers get a "free day off" and they have to figure out what to do with their kid on the day the school is reserving for parent conferences.

Rrrrright... Good point. But there are nuances about it.

First. BvBPL suggested and I agreed to take the problem apart and solve it part by part. The part we currently work on consists of blue-collar somewhat undereducated parents who nevertheless value education and really really want their kids to succeed in that. It's just they don't know what to do and don't see the point of doing something during after hours.

Second.

Spoiler :

It appears to be performed differently here. The conference (when all the parents are supposed to gather together at school and the school representatives address school level issues, progress and points, and afterwards they group in classes and go to different rooms where each class group addresses class level things with the teacher assigned to be in charge of that class) takes place during after hours so that parents could attend with no or minimal issues at work, and it is also possible for kids to be at school during that (just a few teachers turn into entertainers for that while and keep kids busy with some fun). So no one gets a free day off and there's no problem about what to do with the kids in the meanwhile, just take them with you if your granny is busy.

Third. The above spoilered thing does not matter that much really because conference is not a right place and time to address sensitive matters. It's rather a formality. The true talking happens confidentially, when a teacher talks to parents of a specific kid in a face to face meeting. It helps establishing contact between them and can be supported over the phone, e-mail, video calls, whatever. It can be initiated by a parent or by the teacher here. What is it like in the US?

"Parents and teachers meet and talk" does not necessarily mean that they communicate.

Certainly. That's why it is really crucial for the teacher to pick the right place and the right time, as well as the right words. I mean, the teacher is the most interested guy there, right? After all it's the teacher who appears on the videos like Ms.Cox did...

 

[jackelgull]

The value of education also has a lot to do with the kid in question. I think Tim's already raised this point, but even if lines of communication have been made with the parent, the kid has to be involved, or else it won't achieve desired results. I remember my mother telling me how when she was in school, her parents didn't really care about her education, it was 1970's to 1980's in India and she was a girl, and would get married and be supported by her husband, but my mother herself cared a lot about her education, and worked to do well in high school.

That said, some education systems are better than others at helping students achieve. My mother has fared better in college in A,Erica than in high school in India, despite similar work ethic.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Daw...

We have that after hours gathering thing. Common names here would be "parents' night" or "open house." We also have regular (like every semester or every quarter) "conference day." There is no school on conference day, and the teacher is there to meet with parents individually in scheduled meetings through the day, theoretically representing their entire class.

 

[Daw]

The value of education also has a lot to do with the kid in question. I think Tim's already raised this point, but even if lines of communication have been made with the parent, the kid has to be involved, or else it won't achieve desired results. I remember my mother telling me how when she was in school, her parents didn't really care about her education, it was 1970's to 1980's in India and she was a girl, and would get married and be supported by her husband, but my mother herself cared a lot about her education, and worked to do well in high school.

That said, some education systems are better than others at helping students achieve. My mother has fared better in college in A,Erica than in high school in India, despite similar work ethic.

Absolutely.

However, different cases require different approaches.

Your mother's case definitely requires working with kid exponentially more than with parents simply because parents won't seem to cooperate because they have a different agenda for the kid, and the teacher shall be grateful that they allow the kid to learn at all because in some cases they feel reluctant about it due to, say, their religious position. Like "School isn't for girls", huh? Go fight that.

We can't discuss all parenting cases at once, there's no universal approach and can't be.

Currently I'm trying to figure out what can be done about a family where kid is in the risk group and parents, as outlined by BvBPL, are pretty much like he described them and therefore don't match your grandparents on your mother's side. In that case a teacher can expect either neutrality or attempts to support the kid in a more or less awkward manner. To get an idea of what it would be it is essential for the teacher to have a talk with them as early as possible. The kid will be addressed next.

Daw...

We have that after hours gathering thing. Common names here would be "parents' night" or "open house." We also have regular (like every semester or every quarter) "conference day." There is no school on conference day, and the teacher is there to meet with parents individually in scheduled meetings through the day, theoretically representing their entire class.

God, it's hard to be an alien, you see?.. Always that naming thing!

OK, the conference day described this way looks a bit strange. It's very likely to be missed because it is within normal business hours...

Anyway, if I was a US teacher, would it be legally/culturally possible for me to call you on the phone saying like, "Mr.T, I'm Daw, your kids Biology teacher. I am quite happy with your kid's performance, but I think your kid can do even better. I think we could discuss possible approaches to achieving that at your earliest convenience, what do you think?"

 

[Wolfbeckett]

That kind of thing is possible, or was when I was in school at any rate, but the chances of getting a teacher who cared enough to go that extra mile were slim.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

God, it's hard to be an alien, you see?.. Always that naming thing!

OK, the conference day described this way looks a bit strange. It's very likely to be missed because it is within normal business hours...

Anyway, if I was a US teacher, would it be legally/culturally possible for me to call you on the phone saying like, "Mr.T, I'm Daw, your kids Biology teacher. I am quite happy with your kid's performance, but I think your kid can do even better. I think we could discuss possible approaches to achieving that at your earliest convenience, what do you think?"

It would be possible, but no guarantee how it would be received. At least in part because culturally we do have a degree of being accustomed to the conference day thing. Probably not universal, but "need to take off a couple hours, parent conference at the school" is pretty much accepted in most workplaces I think. It's just part of employing people who are "at that age."

There's also, IIRC, normally some sort of option in the scheduling process of the "if you can't make it call to arrange..." variety. Keep in mind that it has been quite some time since I myself was "at that age."

 

[chijohnaok]

OK, public school matches what I know the best. Budget funding, parents complaining about every penny the school asks them for, standard education program, formally encouraged parental involvement into school life that seldom actually happens.

Such schools are common here. Private schools are luxury, parochial schools are missing in the form they are in the USA, religious schools are exotic and are busy with religious stuff (it's a ticking bomb I think, but it'll blow up later and it's a different story).

How common are Public schools in the US? Is it like normal to go there or is it like some kind of misfortune?

According to the National Center for Education Statistics the student population in the US breaks out this way:
Public schools: 49,771,000 (for elementary and secondary school levels) (2012 numbers) Source: https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d14/tables/dt14_203.10.asp?current=yes
Private schools 5,268,090 (for elementary and secondary school levels)(2011 numbers) Source: https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d14/tables/dt14_205.20.asp?current=yes
NOTE: this private total in this number is ALL private (religious and non-sectarian)

They do break out the private totals though into subgroups:
Catholic schools 2,087,870
Other religious 1,991,950
Non-sectarian 1,188,270

I think that "Other religous" would include schools associated with denominations such as Lutheran, Baptist, Jewish, Muslim, etc.

As to your question "Is it like normal to go there or is it like some kind of misfortune?" I can only offer my personal observation (ymmv)

Public schools are everywhere: cities. suburbs and rural areas.

In rural areas you will generally have public schools. You will be less likely to see private or parochial schools in rural areas as you may not have enough children to draw into such a school to make it economically viable.

You will be more likely to see private and parochial schools in cities and suburbs. This is because of the larger population concentrations which make it easier for a school to draw enough students to make such a school economically viable.

I grew up in a blue collar lower middle class to middle class neighborhood in Chicago. When I was getting to the point that my parents were investigating schools to enroll me into they attended an open house at the neighborhood public school that I would have attended. This school was about 3/4 of a mile from where we lived. During their tour of the the school they noticed alot of little things that made them uneasy: Broken lockers, graffitti inside the school, broken windows, etc. This didn't exactly give them a warm and fuzzy feeling. They then started investigating options and visited a neaby Lutheran grade school. (This was our family religion). This school was about 2 1/2 miles from where we lived. During my parents visit there they liked what they saw and heard. They liked the program there. The school looked well kept, no graffitti, broken windows & lockers, etc. My siblings and I attended this school. We then went to Roman Catholic high schools (for reasons of academic performance and location).

I wouldn't exactly say that public schools are "some kind of misfortune". Some public schools (particularly in suburbs) can be very good. Some public schools (magnet schools for instance) in cities can be very good. And some public schools in cities can be downright terrible.

 

[Daw]

[...] the chances of getting a teacher who cared enough to go that extra mile were slim.

Well, maybe that's why they need officers in school at the end of the day

Me, I've got the aforementioned used-to-be block of ice covered with dents from unskillful chiseling melting on my hands and having promising potential of turning into a trouble, and gathering as much information as possible about it looks like a good idea. I see something wrong is going on about this guy and I need to find out what it is and deal with it while I still have time before making the news on TV or the day on UTube.

At least in part because culturally we do have a degree of being accustomed to the conference day thing. Probably not universal, but "need to take off a couple hours, parent conference at the school" is pretty much accepted in most workplaces I think. It's just part of employing people who are "at that age."

There's also, IIRC, normally some sort of option in the scheduling process of the "if you can't make it call to arrange..." variety. Keep in mind that it has been quite some time since I myself was "at that age."

Got it. Fine with me, I'd be happy to see those parents on scheduled day and time. Calling them actively would be a "Plan B" if they neither show up nor rearrange.

It would be possible, but no guarantee how it would be received.

So far I'm happy I could do it at all if I needed. What versions of reaction could I possibly get from blue-collar somewhat undereducated parents thinking high of education and willing their kid to succeed but drawing that line between their home life and outer life as BvBPL described them?

Spoiler :

Disclaimer: I constantly refer to the original description by BvBPL not because I've gone obsessive about it, I just don't want the narrative to be distorted by rephrasing in the process of discussion and I'm also afraid my understanding might be poor just like it just happened with the conference day. I apologize if it is annoying or something.

@chijohnaok: Thanks for your data, your story and your opinion. I take it altogether as it's not a bad luck to get into a Public school (because 10 of 11 go there, or most kids anyway), but it's a bad luck to get into a bad Public school, right?

Speaking of which, how kids happen to get there at all? I mean, ok, there are parents who don't care and never will, their kids are sort of doomed and can't be saved. But can a caring parent pick a public school for their kid to go to?

 

[chijohnaok]

@chijohnaok: Thanks for your data, your story and your opinion. I take it altogether as it's not a bad luck to get into a Public school (because 10 of 11 go there, or most kids anyway), but it's a bad luck to get into a bad Public school, right?

Speaking of which, how kids happen to get there at all? I mean, ok, there are parents who don't care and never will, their kids are sort of doomed and can't be saved. But can a caring parent pick a public school for their kid to go to?

When I attended elementary and high school (early 1970s through 1984) students had very few choices in the Chicago Public School system as to which schools you could attend. You generally went to your district elementary school (the one closest to you with students drawn from a specific geographical area). There were not more than a handful of "magnet" schools and if I recall, admittance to those was based on academic performance. The same was true for high schools. You went to your district high school based on your georgraphical location. There were two "technical" high schools in Chicago at the time, one on the north side of the city and the other on the south side. These two technical high schools offered some college prep courses as well as trade school type classes such as metal shop, auto shop, woodworking shop, etc. Admittance to these two technical high schools was available based on your grades and an entrance examination.

What would have been my district high school was Lake View High School. Most of you have likely never heard of this school, but it was the setting for the 1980 movie "My Bodyguard". This movie is the story of a student that is bullied and has his lunch money robbed by a band of thugs at school. Ironically, 1980 was the year that I entered high school, so had I attended my district high school, this would have been it. I had several elementary school classmates who went on to attend Lake View high school. They told me that during the first week of school there were numerous fights among students in the hallways and that a student set the cafeteria on fire.

The movie My Bodyguard is available in full on You Tube:

Spoiler :

Link to video.

Besides the limited available options that I gave above there were students that did not attend their neighborhood district schools but that was due to forced busing to comply with federal requirements for reasons of race (you had black children from poor predominantly black neighborhoods that were bused to schools in what were then predominantly white neighborhoods). Some of these students spent an hour or more twice a day being transported to and from their school.

I think that today the situation in Chicago is different. There are more magnet schools and I think that parents have more choice over which public school that their children can attend.

As for how public schools are today in places other than Chicago, my experience with these is more limited. I have a son that attends a public elementary school but he lives in a small town, so there are only a handful of schools there. I do hear some tales from friends and coworkers that have children in school in Tampa or the surrounding suburbs. I think that they do have some choices over which schools that their children can attend. Schools in Florida receive "grades" or ratings every year so you can tell which schools are better performing and which are worse performing. This can be used as a guide of sorts in trying to select a school for your child to attend. How likely you are to get your child(ren) out of a badly rated school I am not so sure of.

 

[Wolfbeckett]

Speaking of which, how kids happen to get there at all? I mean, ok, there are parents who don't care and never will, their kids are sort of doomed and can't be saved. But can a caring parent pick a public school for their kid to go to?

To some extent yes. By default it's based on geography, you just go to the school that you're closest to, but it is possible to transfer. I myself did when I was in third grade, my family didn't move but I just started going to a different school for reasons that I don't really remember (but I do know it was a decision by my parents, not something mandated due to district rezoning or something). So it's doable but I don't think it's really common, especially since if you live in the kind of area where the schools are bad enough to want to transfer your kids, you probably have life circumstances that make it very difficult (no car to drive them, for example).

 

[Daw]

[...]There were not more than a handful of "magnet" schools and if I recall, admittance to those was based on academic performance. The same was true for high schools. [...]

Wait. If the same was true for high schools, then the former was about elementary schools, right? Webster gives it that elementary schools are schools for kids to start with. Because it is a starting point for the kinds, what academic performance can be expected of them already?

"technical" high schools

A familiar concept, it's similar here.

You went to your district high school based on your georgraphical location.

By default it's based on geography, you just go to the school that you're closest to, but it is possible to transfer. I myself did [..] So it's doable but I don't think it's really common

Ok, also familiar, same here, more or less. It is possible and some people do it, but most don't.

OTOH, although schooling quality also differs here, the "bad" ones are still good enough to do without full-time cops on board. They are thought to be "bad" just because there are some better ones.

if you live in the kind of area where the schools are bad enough to want to transfer your kids, you probably have life circumstances that make it very difficult (no car to drive them, for example).

Is it a problems in populated areas with mass transit system at hand? I mean, I used to travel to the 3rd subway station for all my 10 years in school. Took me 30 minutes to get there. It wasn't because the school in my neighborhood was bad (no graffiti, no broken windows or any other post-apocalyptic stuff), just the one I went to was better in like offering a slightly more favorably adjusted program (more hours for English language, for instance, which my parents considered to be a benefit).

I can imagine it may be actually a problem in rural areas or such. My wife comes from a military career officer's family, so she spent most of her childhood in garrison towns amidst nowhere, from where her father's helicopter squadron was supposed to scramble upon the potential enemies' heads all by surprise or something. Understandably, they didn't have the luxury of being picky about the schools there, for there was just one for a couple of dozens miles around. The school didn't have to be bad though.

___________________________________________________

OK, let's run some subtotals, shall we?

• Public schooling is not a doom as such, because public schools are quite common and can be quite good.
• One can bail out [with an effort sometimes] if they don't like where they are.
• Teachers are not underpaid losers who are there just because they've failed everywhere else and it's their only option left.
• Parents can be reached and communicated/worked with if needed.
• Kids can be addressed individually, presumably, and it goes without saying, I guess.

Umm... still don't see where the police needs to be involved, unless some teachers (and their immediate superiors) are doing their jobs poorly and screw it beyond any hope that they will some day be able to sort out their crap themselves.
But even then it's not about police involvement but rather about replacing the whole staff of such schools with people who know what they are supposed to be doing.

What did I miss?

 

[Formaldehyde]

The problem isn't with the staff in these schools. You can take the best teachers in the world, and they aren't going to get far if there is no support from the parents. The problem is more a matter of de facto segregation than anything else.

 

[chijohnaok]

Wait. If the same was true for high schools, then the former was about elementary schools, right? Webster gives it that elementary schools are schools for kids to start with. Because it is a starting point for the kinds, what academic performance can be expected of them already?

That is a good question. I am not sure of the answer.

The specific school that I was thinking of (going back to my childhood days) is Walt Disney Magnet School. According to their webite "Much of the student body is bused from the many neighborhoods in the city". It also says that "Disney students in grades K-8 are selected by lottery. Applications are taken annually, during the fall for the following school year". I don't know whether all magnet elementary schools in the Chicago Public School system work the same way, but this is how it works at this particular school.

Is it a problems in populated areas with mass transit system at hand? I mean, I used to travel to the 3rd subway station for all my 10 years in school. Took me 30 minutes to get there. It wasn't because the school in my neighborhood was bad (no graffiti, no broken windows or any other post-apocalyptic stuff), just the one I went to was better in like offering a slightly more favorably adjusted program (more hours for English language, for instance, which my parents considered to be a benefit).

I can imagine it may be actually a problem in rural areas or such. My wife comes from a military career officer's family, so she spent most of her childhood in garrison towns amidst nowhere, from where her father's helicopter squadron was supposed to scramble upon the potential enemies' heads all by surprise or something. Understandably, they didn't have the luxury of being picky about the schools there, for there was just one for a couple of dozens miles around. The school didn't have to be bad though.

Public school students in most school systems in the US are transported at no cost to them via school buses. Where I live in a suburb of Tampa, FL, the children gather outside the subdivision in the morning, the school bus comes by to pick them up and take them to school. At the end of the school day the process is reversed. Some parents drop off and pick up their children themselves. And in urban areas sometimes children may take public transportation but that is (I think) normally if they staying after school for extra-curricular activities.

In my case (as I went to parochial schools), my father would generally drop us off at school in the morning and then (until about 4th grade) would pick us up at the end of the school day. Sometimes there was a carpool where parents of children that lived near us would rotate the driving duties. After 4th grade we would usually take public transportation home. In high school I got to and from school by public transportation only (A bus, then the "EL", then another bus).

The problem isn't with the staff in these schools. You can take the best teachers in the world, and they aren't going to get far if there is no support from the parents. The problem is more a matter of de facto segregation than anything else.

Question:
Are you saying that the lack of support from parents is due to "de facto segregation"?

 

[Formaldehyde]

Are there far more uncaring parents and unwanted children in the poor neighborhoods? Yep.

This is one reason why Congress should be overjoyed to provide abortions to the poor for free.


Link to video.

 

[Berzerker]

he didn't ask that Form

 

[Formaldehyde]

I turned a question that is completely meaningless and a non sequitur to me into one I could answer.

If you don't like it, tough noogies.

 

[Berzerker]

so you answered your straw man

 

[Timsup2nothin]

so you answered your straw man

Since so many actual people have stopped talking to him, this seems an appropriate thing for him to take up.

 

[Hygro]

it turned out the abortions story happened to coincide with the lead-in-gasoline theory of crime, which is probably what actually happened.

 

[Flying Pig]

How do you work that out? If anything I'd be inclined to think the reverse.