Official Civ4 S&T Off-Topic Thread

[Civ'ed]

Best anthem is the Anthem of the Proclamation of the Republic of the United States of Brazil.

Sidetrack from Brazilpol here.
What's with all the United States of X in the early Americas?

 

[CaterpillarKing]

Everyone wanted to be like America

 

[Spirictum]

Those damned republican conspirators were fanatic to copy the political system of the US into Brazil.

This is the drafted flag from the Revolution:

They were clearly trying to copy the US. Thanks to the head of the conspirators, we could instead of making ourselves the USB (not the universal serial bus port, but the United States of Brazil ) just change some things on our flag and keep the design mostly intact, that's easy to see:

But our name became USB, which is a shame. Only several years later they would change to Federative Republic of Brazil.

 

[Matthias I]

You made me imagine a Emperor Pedro III of Brazil with Getúlio Vargas as prime-minister.

 

[W|M]

You made me imagine a Emperor Pedro III of Brazil with Getúlio Vargas as prime-minister.

Oh god no

Why do I hate our Republic so much? Well that's mostly because I blame it for the reduction of Brazil to a third world country in the XXth century. If Brazil's history is studied deeply, then you can come to the conclusion that the coup d'etat simply destroyed Brazil, and it only began to try to regain its strength in 1930, 40 years later.

Not that Getúlio Vargas was any better, though, he was heavily influenced by fascism, brutally persecuted communists and other opponents of his dictatorship, forced Brasil's large immigrant population to speak Portuguese, and if it weren't for a certain Mr. Roosevelt up north, it's likely that he would have joined the Axis.

The US ruled North, we ruled South. But out rule was softer, because Dom Pedro II wished it to be like that. He disliked war and expansionism. Argentina was attacked 2 times by us, and in neither it lost any territory as war prize. Uruguay had its capital conquered by us sometimes, but since they called for independence in 1828, we never more wished to annex them back (on those successive conquests). When Paraguay finally lost the war, Dom Pedro II made it an order to prohibit any claim on Paraguay's territory from any of the 3 Alliance Countries, except those areas conquered by Paraguay from these 3 countries. And that's how Paraguay left the war, without its country being dismembered.

I don't know much about the wars with Argentina, but one of them didn't result in a Brazilian victory, so of course no territory was taken by the Brazilians. The Triple Alliance War did see Paraguay lose a lot of territory that it had controlled before the war to Brazil and Argentina, and it was almost annexed by the two of them until their respective governments realized it would be best to keep a buffer state there to prevent border disputes and more war between Brazil and Argentina.

 

[Matthias I]

Not that Getúlio Vargas was any better, though, he was heavily influenced by fascism, brutally persecuted communists and other opponents of his dictatorship, forced Brasil's large immigrant population to speak Portuguese, and if it weren't for a certain Mr. Roosevelt up north, it's likely that he would have joined the Axis.

Even though this is true, he modernized Brazil and bought a lot of progressive reforms for it. It's difficult to say what is he ideology. He had sympathy with the facists, this is true, but, for me as a leftist, he was a great socialist and Brazil would be far worst without him. He bought the modernity to Brazil, but at the cost of two dictatorships. And if he joined the Axis, the result would be different. With a base in Recife, the nazis would have dominated the Atlantic. So it would have less Americans in Europe.

 

[Spirictum]

Not that Getúlio Vargas was any better, though, he was heavily influenced by fascism, brutally persecuted communists and other opponents of his dictatorship, forced Brasil's large immigrant population to speak Portuguese, and if it weren't for a certain Mr. Roosevelt up north, it's likely that he would have joined the Axis.




I don't know much about the wars with Argentina, but one of them didn't result in a Brazilian victory, so of course no territory was taken by the Brazilians. The Triple Alliance War did see Paraguay lose a lot of territory that it had controlled before the war to Brazil and Argentina, and it was almost annexed by the two of them until their respective governments realized it would be best to keep a buffer state there to prevent border disputes and more war between Brazil and Argentina.

Getúlio is both a monster and an important President. It was in his era that the first major changes on the system since the Fall of the Empire took place. Although a fascist-minded person and a dictator, he improved the brazilian situation, something no one in the Old Republic did.

The Argentina conflict that we lost was in Uruguay's war of independence. Argentina didn't win, nor did it lose. This was before Dom Pedro I abdicated (actually far before the rule of Dom Pedro II). All conflicts with Argentina after this one we won.

About Paraguay's borders it's hard to measure a state with no cartography at all at that time. But what is ture is that the core region of Paraguay, that which was of course Paraguayan was untouched, only the disputed territories were considered, and none was hastily given to the victorious nations after the war. Paraguay had its government and order restored before treaties could be made. It was the first time Cartography was reaching these lands, and Argentina was thirsty for more territories.

And no, there was no plan of annexing any Paraguayan territory in this war by Brazil, Dom Pedro II made that clear on the speeches of the throne, although Argentina was loving the idea of splitting Paraguay in half. He forced this upon Paraguay because it was our army that won this war, it was Brazil who liberated Assunción from Solano López. Although we caused much pain to the paraguayans, we didn't start this war, it was Solano López.

A great book on the topic is: Maldita Guerra by Francisco Doratioto


@Matthias
Being a leftist you should be ashamed of Getúlio. He didn't give the people more conditions or freedom. He gave the powerful more power, he stabilized Brazil, censored propaganda and other stuff, made the people easier to handle, created the Peleguismo, in which he controlled the syndicates. He was a monster in this aspect, but he was responsible for modernizing Brazil, at least.

Even Lula in his 2 governments is more left-wing then Getúlio was (and Lula sold himself nicely to win 2002's election).

And to imagine WW2 if Brazil sided with the Axis is really hard, and may open a new topic for discussion here in the Off-Topic

 

[Matthias I]

@Matthias
Being a leftist you should be ashamed of Getúlio. He didn't give the people more conditions or freedom. He gave the powerful more power, he stabilized Brazil, censored propaganda and other stuff, made the people easier to handle, created the Peleguismo, in which he controlled the syndicates. He was a monster in this aspect, but he was responsible for modernizing Brazil, at least.

He was the Pai dos Pobres and the Mãe dos ricos. I'm not saying that he was perfect, but I'm saying that he was great president after all. Almost all these things were common these times. And after all he recreated the Brazilian Democracy, even being a dictator. I doubt that the powerful would be less powerful without Getúlio, but I doubt that Brazil would be modernized so fast without him.

 

[W|M]

Being called pai dos pobres doesn't excuse you from, say, deporting a pregnant communist Jew to Nazi Germany. Getúlio was forced to step down from power mostly because of US post-war influence and domestic opposition

 

[GreekAnalyzer]

Politics belong in a different thread, not here please.

 

[trexeric]

Interesting to see non-United States politics discussed, though.

 

[Matthias I]

Politics belong in a different thread, not here please.

Technically it's history, not politics.

 

[Matthias I]

Being called pai dos pobres doesn't excuse you from, say, deporting a pregnant communist Jew to Nazi Germany. Getúlio was forced to step down from power mostly because of US post-war influence and domestic opposition

I agree with you. I'm not a getulista, I'm just saying that he made important reforms and he was not so terrible. He was our most important president. He did terrible things, but also good things. It's difficult to say his ideology. He made important progresses for the left, and this is what I'm proud of. But he made many things for the right too, and this part I prefer not comment . He was good and bad for Brazil.

 

[baseballpie]

Hey guys, straying from Brazilian politics for a second, if you're looking for something interactive to spend some time with, or if you're just looking for a good read, then I invite you to look here. It's still developing, and you can still make your mark on the situation.

 

[CaterpillarKing]

I think Moai has officially joined the ranks of the lurkers.

 

[DKVM]

Indeed

 

[Tycho]

Man I'm glad I'm not a lurker anymore. Just a sort of in and out poster that doesn't contribute much to any discussion.

 

[Manuss]

I'm not an actual lurker in the mexico story, but I come into the thread just to make it not boldened in the forum

 

[CaterpillarKing]

You poopy head

 

[mrrandomplayer]

Alright, I'm starting to get back to S&T after my (surprisingly short) hiatus. I'll probably be only active on NES and IOT, though I might check this thread sometimes.