Only 1 shooting this week so far

[Borachio]

Then how do you explain what has happened in the United Kingdom and Australia after they passed strict gun bans after deadly massacres?

We are never ...

<snip>

You make an unassailable case, imo.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Then how do you explain what has happened in the United Kingdom and Australia after they passed strict gun bans after deadly massacres?

We are never going to stop all mass murders. That is a fact. But we can take steps to minimize the chances that the mass murderers will be successful in their actions. Reduce the number of options available to them, and it will be more difficult to perpetrate the kinds of horrors we have seen all too often over the past decade or so.

Is the loss of 20 first graders a fair price for us to pay so that you can play Rambo on the weekends and have a false sense of security? Nancy Lanza collected guns. She was a gun nut, obsessed with her security. How did that work out for her? The very thing she was hell-bent on having to defend herself became the tool of her demise.

For Christ&#8217;s sake. These are 6 year olds we are talking about. Innocent, sweet children that had their entire lives ahead of them. Birthdays, boyfriends/girlfriends, weddings, kids of their own. Gone. Not to mention the trauma that this has caused to their brothers and sisters, parents, extended families, surviving classmates and yes, the ENTIRE nation.

School used to be a safe place to go. Now it is one more place that we have to worry about. Be looking over our shoulder to make sure we are safe. That is not freedom. That is slavery. We are slaves to the gun culture that this country has cultivated over the years. We are slaves to the violence that is becoming more and more a part of our daily lives. Violence made more intense, and more frequent, by easy access to firearms that are better suited to the battlefield than the bedroom.

Yet time after time we are talked down from our anger about these senseless acts. It&#8217;s too soon to talk about it. The real answer is to have more guns, so we can shoot these bad guys in the act. Losing our guns will make us less free. It&#8217;s unconstitutional. You name it, but the excuses are endless.

And we always back down. Then it happens again. And again. And again.

How much is too much? How many people have to die before we take a good hard look at ourselves and realize that perhaps we are not infallible? How many innocent kids have to die? Perhaps we could change? Perhaps that change really won&#8217;t manifest itself in all the horrible ways the detractors are imagining?

Perhaps we would ultimately be freer from fear. From paranoia that going to the mall to hang out with your friends could be the last thing you do. That going to class is a dangerous occupation? That dropping my kids off at school could be the last time I see them alive?

What is it going to take for us to wake up and realize the errors of our past and change ourselves for the better? How many more innocent children have to die?

Enough is enough. It is time to make some serious changes to how we live. How we treat mental illness. And how we deal with guns.

That is an excellent post that directly and cogently addresses many of the issues. But someone used the term "assault rifle" instead of "assault weapon", so let's continue to discuss that instead. That the "liberals" just want to ban "scary looking guns".

 

[kochman]

Then how do you explain what has happened in the United Kingdom and Australia after they passed strict gun bans after deadly massacres?

1) "Yet" is the key word here...
2) They don't have the violent culture that the USA has
3) How do you explain Switzerland, which has WAY more access to fully automatic weapons?
4) How do you explain all the other countries in the world that have massive access to AKs, ARs, etc and not having school shootings? (Iraq, Afghanistan, etc)
5) How do you explain all the countries in the world that have ready access to pistols/rifles and not having school shootings (Argentina, Uruguay, etc)?

Obviously, school/mass shootings has become a "thing" in America for the deranged... taking millions of guns away won't stop these people. They will use bombs, etc.
Laws don't prevent crimes... we have them for the aftermath.

Hugely emotion response hidden...

Spoiler :

We are never going to stop all mass murders. That is a fact. But we can take steps to minimize the chances that the mass murderers will be successful in their actions. Reduce the number of options available to them, and it will be more difficult to perpetrate the kinds of horrors we have seen all too often over the past decade or so.

Is the loss of 20 first graders a fair price for us to pay so that you can play Rambo on the weekends and have a false sense of security? Nancy Lanza collected guns. She was a gun nut, obsessed with her security. How did that work out for her? The very thing she was hell-bent on having to defend herself became the tool of her demise.

For Christ&#8217;s sake. These are 6 year olds we are talking about. Innocent, sweet children that had their entire lives ahead of them. Birthdays, boyfriends/girlfriends, weddings, kids of their own. Gone. Not to mention the trauma that this has caused to their brothers and sisters, parents, extended families, surviving classmates and yes, the ENTIRE nation.

School used to be a safe place to go. Now it is one more place that we have to worry about. Be looking over our shoulder to make sure we are safe. That is not freedom. That is slavery. We are slaves to the gun culture that this country has cultivated over the years. We are slaves to the violence that is becoming more and more a part of our daily lives. Violence made more intense, and more frequent, by easy access to firearms that are better suited to the battlefield than the bedroom.

Yet time after time we are talked down from our anger about these senseless acts. It&#8217;s too soon to talk about it. The real answer is to have more guns, so we can shoot these bad guys in the act. Losing our guns will make us less free. It&#8217;s unconstitutional. You name it, but the excuses are endless.

And we always back down. Then it happens again. And again. And again.

How much is too much? How many people have to die before we take a good hard look at ourselves and realize that perhaps we are not infallible? How many innocent kids have to die? Perhaps we could change? Perhaps that change really won&#8217;t manifest itself in all the horrible ways the detractors are imagining?

Perhaps we would ultimately be freer from fear. From paranoia that going to the mall to hang out with your friends could be the last thing you do. That going to class is a dangerous occupation? That dropping my kids off at school could be the last time I see them alive?

What is it going to take for us to wake up and realize the errors of our past and change ourselves for the better? How many more innocent children have to die?

Enough is enough. It is time to make some serious changes to how we live. How we treat mental illness. And how we deal with guns.

Provide specifics regarding gun control and you'll get less push back... when you just post a big venting appealing to emotions and not facts you don't get anywhere.
You don't realize you've been manipulated by the media... and your hugely emotional appeals are meaningless to the majority of people. Come with stats, facts, etc... not emotional outbursts.

It could be the last time you drop your kids off for a crap load of reasons, a pit bull could get on the playground and maul them, a car could hit them, etc...

Are you really scared to go to the mall? So scared in general?

Our culture should scare you, but you're blaming a tool, and saying laws are going to prevent crimes... laws don't prevent criminals from breaking them, for the millionth time, they are used to punish them to prevent repeats from the same person...

As for "false sense of security", which is funny since you are expressing so much fear... It isn't a false sense of security. It is real security. I could stop anyone trying to break into my house and kill me cold. I have a concealed permit when I have to go to unsavory places... it is actual security.

 

[Farm Boy]

Well, that's a very nicely written post BSmith, solid human points, good all around. I can respect why you hold that opinion, even if I still fail to agree with it.

The derailing jerk in me always wants to ask when the bile is up about guns where the fury is about the Americans dead every year due to homicidal maniacs who talk on the phone while driving, but that's not really here nor there even though the body count is about the same. Well, actually, maybe the issues are closer linked than I thought. We know driving kills people, we know talking on a cell phone kills people when it's mixed with driving. Why do we not make at least one of these two things illegal?

 

[Patroklos]

Then how do you explain what has happened in the United Kingdom and Australia after they passed strict gun bans after deadly massacres

How do you explain the periods of American history with far less of these events despite having just as many if not more guns available per capita? What do you attribute the lower rate of violent crime in those countries before their ban to?

The simple fact is the US is not Australia, and neither are the UK. You are not controlling for even the most basic variables.

We are never going to stop all mass murders. That is a fact. But we can take steps to minimize the chances that the mass murderers will be successful in their actions. Reduce the number of options available to them, and it will be more difficult to perpetrate the kinds of horrors we have seen all too often over the past decade or so.

The options used by them are most often not the weapons people like Forma are talking about banning.

And where there is a will there is a way. You are not going to stop a mass murderer by adding a required home invasion to his list of crimes. Nor are you EVER going to remove weapons from the US population to any meaningful degree.

They are here, and they will always be here to any meaningful degree whether it simply be residual stock incurrent ownership of an illegal trade that will make them no harder to get than drugs.

Is the loss of 20 first graders a fair price for us to pay so that you can play Rambo on the weekends and have a false sense of security? Nancy Lanza collected guns. She was a gun nut, obsessed with her security. How did that work out for her? The very thing she was hell-bent on having to defend herself became the tool of her demise.

1.) there is no evidense that she was a gun collector, a gunt nut, or obsessed with her security.

2.) over a hundred million Americans live with firearms with no problems, and very few of them would characterize what they do as "playing rambo." you are prop ably friends with dozens of them and don't even know it. Your flippant attitude towards their excersise of their rights is just another example of you not taking the issue seriously.

For Christ&#8217;s sake. These are 6 year olds we are talking about. Innocent, sweet children that had their entire lives ahead of them. Birthdays, boyfriends/girlfriends, weddings, kids of their own. Gone. Not to mention the trauma that this has caused to their brothers and sisters, parents, extended families, surviving classmates and yes, the ENTIRE nation.

Elderly vehicular use kills far more people, children or otherwise. Many times I incidents on scales similar to this. Is the AARP a monstrous organization for lobbying against old age drivers exams?

And as I have pointed out many times gun bans, especially the type under discussion, have nothing to do with the event in CT. If you actually care about the children in question you would stop exploiting them for unrelated political goals and be discussing relevant issues.

School used to be a safe place to go. Now it is one more place that we have to worry about. Be looking over our shoulder to make sure we are safe. That is not freedom. That is slavery. We are slaves to the gun culture that this country has cultivated over the years. We are slaves to the violence that is becoming more and more a part of our daily lives. Violence made more intense, and more frequent, by easy access to firearms that are better suited to the battlefield than the bedroom.

Do you no longer consider office buildings safe due to workplace rampages or 9/11? You exploitive sensationalism is pretty sickening. Schools are still a safe place by any metric you care to use , and you ginning up hysteria is not solving anything.

And again if you are so concerned about the issue, why are you not proposing actual solutions?

Yet time after time we are talked down from our anger about these senseless acts. It&#8217;s too soon to talk about it. The real answer is to have more guns, so we can shoot these bad guys in the act. Losing our guns will make us less free. It&#8217;s unconstitutional. You name it, but the excuses are endless.

I suggest that when you are done being angry you will be in a position to approach this from logic, at which point you can join me and others.

You said something important there though, noting that gun ban knee jerk reactions are nothing more than an appeal from anger, not exactly the best approach.

And we always back down. Then it happens again. And again. And again.

That's right, we back down. Or more accurately we give into irrelevant feel good measures like gun bans that let us blissfully ignore harder issues we need to deal with.

How much is too much? How many people have to die before we take a good hard look at ourselves and realize that perhaps we are not infallible? How many innocent kids have to die? Perhaps we could change? Perhaps that change really won&#8217;t manifest itself in all the horrible ways the detractors are imagining?

Perhaps we would ultimately be freer from fear. From paranoia that going to the mall to hang out with your friends could be the last thing you do. That going to class is a dangerous occupation? That dropping my kids off at school could be the last time I see them alive?

What is it going to take for us to wake up and realize the errors of our past and change ourselves for the better? How many more innocent children have to die?

God, if only you had said that devoid of your gun ban mumbo jumbo. You are absolutely right, but the required change for a real solutionmismnot the ridiculous banning of a physical object. It's the values of a society.

Selfishness is what leads to these acts, and selfishness is an ethos we have gladly fostered and embraced in so many aspects of our lives. A selfishness where the lives of other people are of no consequence to a personal desire for revenge or outrage.

Like I said, hard questions and hard answers. Do you thing the solution then will be an easy gun ban?

Enough is enough. It is time to make some serious changes to how we live. How we treat mental illness. And how we deal with guns.

You were doing well, then you had to add that last dig...

 

[kochman]

That is an excellent post that directly and cogently addresses many of the issues. But someone used the term "assault rifle" instead of "assault weapon", so let's continue to discuss that instead. That the "liberals" just want to ban "scary looking guns".

Actually, it was a post without a single fact and just an appeal using melodramatic terms to scare you and make you emotion like he is about it.

"We are living in slavery" because of the "gun culture"... absolutely ridiculous.

 

[kochman]

Well, that's a very nicely written post BSmith, solid human points, good all around. I can respect why you hold that opinion, even if I still fail to agree with it.

The derailing jerk in me always wants to ask when the bile is up about guns where the fury is about the Americans dead every year due to homicidal maniacs who talk on the phone while driving, but that's not really here nor there even though the body count is about the same. Well, actually, maybe the issues are closer linked than I thought. We know driving kills people, we know talking on a cell phone kills people when it's mixed with driving. Why do we not make at least one of these two things illegal?

Because everyone wants to talk on the phone and drive...
Everyone doesn't want to own guns, so the non-gun owning crowd (typically) attack the gun situation, because they want to feel safer by taking away others' rights but not their own (no talking on the phone).

 

[Borachio]

Isn't it illegal in the US to talk on a non-hands-free phone while driving? It is in the UK. Though it doesn't stop people doing it.

There's also a move to make it illegal to smoke while driving.

Btw, is it legal to drive while not wearing a seatbelt? Or ride a motorcycle without wearing a helmet?

Or leave children under a certain age alone in the house? (I'm just curious.)

 

[kochman]

Isn't it illegal in the US to talk on a non-hands-free phone while driving? It is in the UK. Though it doesn't stop people doing it.

In some places, but not nationally, no.
Nor is texting and driving illegal, which is way more dangerous.
Nor is shaving, applying make up, etc...

 

[Farm Boy]

Isn't it illegal in the US to talk on a non-hands-free phone while driving? It is in the UK. Though it doesn't stop people doing it.

There's also a move to make it illegal to smoke while driving.

Btw, is it legal to drive while not wearing a seatbelt?

Newp, not in most places, but then again I can't own a full automatic Kalashnikov either. Not that I want to do either, drive without a seat belt or own an auto Kalashnikov. The fact that you are using your hands on the wheel only helps a little compared to holding the phone, the problem is the distraction from the call, primarily.

 

[Patroklos]

Those are generally state laws, they vary wildly.

 

[JollyRoger]

Because everyone wants to talk on the phone and drive...
Everyone doesn't want to own guns, so the non-gun owning crowd (typically) attack the gun situation, because they want to feel safer by taking away others' rights but not their own (no talking on the phone).

Actually, there are a lot of people going after talking-on-your-phone-while-driving, including my gun nut stepfather. Hee in Texas, there are laws against in while in a school zone. There are also many gun restrictions (that have been upheld in the face of Heller challenges. Texas and most, if not all of the South are far more gun grabbing than that state with the socialist Senator.

 

[Farm Boy]

Actually, there are a lot of people going after talking-on-your-phone-while-driving, including my gun nut stepfather.

Well, even if we make that illegal, like murdering people with a gun, surely it will still happen anyways. I would say get rid of the drivers licenses or get rid of the phones.

 

[Borachio]

The fact that you are using your hands on the wheel only helps a little compared to holding the phone, the problem is the distraction from the call, primarily.

This is true, imo.

But it is also very hard to control a car effectively with only one hand for more than a second or two.

 

[BSmith1068]

1) "Yet" is the key word here...

Don’t be ridiculous.

The laws in the UK were passed after a mass killing in Scotland in 1996.

The laws in Australia were passed after a mass killing. Also in 1996. Between 1981 and 1996 there were a dozen mass shootings in Australia prior to the Tasmanian shooting that killed 35 in 1996. In the 16 years after the law? None.

How many mass killings have we had here since Columbine in 1999?

2) They don't have the violent culture that the USA has
3) How do you explain Switzerland, which has WAY more access to fully automatic weapons?
5) How do you explain all the countries in the world that have ready access to pistols/rifles and not having school shootings (Argentina, Uruguay, etc)?

It is not just guns, but our violent society that has easy access to guns. Both need to change.

4) How do you explain all the other countries in the world that have massive access to AKs, ARs, etc and not having school shootings? (Iraq, Afghanistan, etc)

For real? You are seriously comparing our society to Iraq and Afghanistan? Perhaps we are more lost than I even imagined.

Obviously, school/mass shootings has become a "thing" in America for the deranged... taking millions of guns away won't stop these people. They will use bombs, etc.
Laws don't prevent crimes... we have them for the aftermath.

One of the first things I said was that we would never be able to eliminate 100% of mass murders. But reducing the number of guns in the system, and making it harder to get the ones that are most deadly would go a long way to reducing the number of attempts. It is only logical, and the reality of the UK and Australia’s efforts on this show that it is possible.

Provide specifics regarding gun control and you'll get less push back... when you just post a big venting appealing to emotions and not facts you don't get anywhere.
You don't realize you've been manipulated by the media... and your hugely emotional appeals are meaningless to the majority of people. Come with stats, facts, etc... not emotional outbursts.

I already have:

No. It looks like a rifle with some extra stuff on it. But looks don’t matter. I don’t care how “scary” looking a weapon is. If it can shoot rapidly, hold a large amount of ammunition, and can be reloaded in seconds it should be banned. The biggest issue I see with this rifle is the magazine.

I also don’t care what formally constitutes an “assault rifle”. If it meets the above criteria, it shouldn’t be in the hands of Joe Shmoe Public.

As for "false sense of security", which is funny since you are expressing so much fear... It isn't a false sense of security. It is real security. I could stop anyone trying to break into my house and kill me cold. I have a concealed permit when I have to go to unsavory places... it is actual security.

More guns = more opportunities that those guns will be used. More guns being used = more people killed. Putting more guns into the system is not making things safer. It is only increasing the chances that guns will be used. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy. A circular argument that only leads to more guns in the system, and more people being killed, so more people thinking they need a gun to protect themselves, thus putting more guns in the system.

 

[Agent327]

That's a pretty correct assessment.

Unlike:

I can only assume you quoted the wrong post as your response and the quote have no connection to each other.

There are only a couple of people in this thread taking this issue seriously, and anyone discussing assault rifles are not included in this group. No assault rifle was used in this event, nor the other three from this year. Or Columbine.

The issue here is people, what has changed that has made people who have no more access to weapons than those 20 years ago (including the non co utter mentally ill) decide this behavior is acceptable.

That is a hard question to ask and answer because the question and answer are going to make us take a hard look at our modern society. So instead of doing that you have people talking out religious purity and gun bans, neither of which will do jack to stop these events but will let them put the blinders back on for a bit.

First, you assume wrong.

Second, I'm not arguing gun ban but actual gun control (which you seem to think is "strict"; it isn't).

I agree, people should stop mocking Huckabee.

Which proves my point you are not taking the issue seriously. Thanks.

 

[kochman]

Don&#8217;t be ridiculous.

You think it will never happen again. How odd.
As time passes, the odds of it happening again get closer to 1.
Also, their culture is not the same, and their population not nearly as big... so, yes, it will happen again. Guaranteed. You're living in a dream world if you don't think it will.

It is not just guns, but our violent society that has easy access to guns. Both need to change.

Specifics?
Define how easy it is. This kid stole his, as he had been turned down at a gun store.

For real? You are seriously comparing our society to Iraq and Afghanistan? Perhaps we are more lost than I even imagined.

I compared it to every country in the world that has guns, actually, including these which are in terrible positions, have massive access to guns (you could get an AK for $20 when I was in Afghanistan)... yet they don't have the problem.
You may have an emotional eek response to this statement, but it is factual... You liking it isn't really a concern.

One of the first things I said was that we would never be able to eliminate 100% of mass murders. But reducing the number of guns in the system, and making it harder to get the ones that are most deadly would go a long way to reducing the number of attempts. It is only logical, and the reality of the UK and Australia&#8217;s efforts on this show that it is possible.

Not, they don't. It's really a poor argument.

I already have:
If it can shoot rapidly, hold a large amount of ammunition, and can be reloaded in seconds it should be banned.

Oh, I didn't think this was specific, but I'll play along.
OK, so, that .22 rifle should be banned... it barely kills squirrels, but it's a threat to you.
What if it can only hold 10 rounds but be reloaded rapidly?

More guns = more opportunities that those guns will be used.

Gun ownership rates in Switzerland show statistically that you are wrong. So, the rest of your idea here is null and void.

I'm sorry that you live in fear. I suggest that you look at statistics and figure out that guns violence is completely overblown by the media.

 

[Formaldehyde]

More guns = more opportunities that those guns will be used. More guns being used = more people killed. Putting more guns into the system is not making things safer. It is only increasing the chances that guns will be used. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy. A circular argument that only leads to more guns in the system, and more people being killed, so more people thinking they need a gun to protect themselves, thus putting more guns in the system.

What is really ironic is that this is occurring despite violent crime continuing to decrease. Even the election of Obama triggered massive gun and ammo sales to the point where they even ran out of supplies of the latter for a period.

Gun ownership is largely based on fear and paranoia of others.

 

[JollyRoger]

I agree, people should stop mocking Huckabee.

It would be a good start if Huckabee woud take a hint from the NRA and stop saying things mockable.

 

[BSmith1068]

Well, that's a very nicely written post BSmith, solid human points, good all around. I can respect why you hold that opinion, even if I still fail to agree with it.

The derailing jerk in me always wants to ask when the bile is up about guns where the fury is about the Americans dead every year due to homicidal maniacs who talk on the phone while driving, but that's not really here nor there even though the body count is about the same. Well, actually, maybe the issues are closer linked than I thought. We know driving kills people, we know talking on a cell phone kills people when it's mixed with driving. Why do we not make at least one of these two things illegal?

For the record, I think that talking without a hands-free set, or texting while driving should be illegal. I think we should have regular driving tests for everyone – not just the elderly. I also agree with seatbelt laws, and think that helmet laws should be everywhere, although with the last two the real jeopardy is to oneself, and not others.

In a general response to other posts, I don’t think that gun control is the only solution/thing that should be looked at. Mental health issues are huge in this too, and frankly nationalized healthcare would go a long way to increasing access to mental health resources for everyone – not just the ones that can afford it. But that is probably better suited for another thread.

I also am not advocating banning all guns. Not even close. I think some people are reading what I am saying and thinking that. I just want to ban the guns that facilitate the rapid killing of many people in a short period of time. Guns that really don’t have an alternative use in our society.

We have a problem in this country. Far too many people take it upon themselves (for whatever reason) to kill lots of people at once. We should be doing everything in our power to make this difficult for them to do. Not just sweep it under the rug and say “well, we’re different. Nothing we can do about it”.