Paris burning

[luiz]

If the rioters throw molotov cocktails, rocks, and even shoot the police, the police should just shoot them back. Easy.

I don't see how this is the fault of immigrants at large, or multi-culturalism. Obvisouly, a handful of thugs are causing alot of troube and confronting the police. So shoot them and get over it.

 

[Arachnaphobia]

If the rioters throw molotov cocktails, rocks, and even shoot the police, the police should just shoot them back. Easy.

I don't see how this is the fault of immigrants at large, or multi-culturalism. Obvisouly, a handful of thugs are causing alot of troube and confronting the police. So shoot them and get over it.

Yeah but you shoot more people then even more people will start rioting.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Australia had a very similar case, stolen car was being chased by police resulting in the deaths of two passangers. The driver escaped and the result was riots on the street at what was claimed as wrongful death and police brutality. Eventually they released wire tap converstations proving the police were not at fault.


----

Dont worry Europe is already shifting into anti-immigrant footing. This will have the effect of a cataylst on the problem.

Immigration should be allowed but it must be balanced, it's excessive immigration is what is causing this.

 

[Little Raven]

If the rioters throw molotov cocktails, rocks, and even shoot the police, the police should just shoot them back. Easy.

I predict a short and unglamorous political career in your future.

Shooting your constituents, even when they are behaving badly, is not a wise move in a democracy.

 

[luiz]

Yeah but you shoot more people then even more people will start rioting.

No they won't, not if you make it absolutely clear that they would get shot as well. People are genarally afraid of getting shot.

I predict a short and unglamorous political career in your future.

Shooting your constituents, even when they are behaving badly, is not a wise move in a democracy.

The thing is "behaving badly" is deeply euphesmitic.
Behaving badly would be blocking traffic, or spray painting insults towards authorities in public monuments, etc.

Throwing molotov cocktails and shooting the police is a severe criminal action that must be dealt with accordingly. And the way to do it is by shooting them.

 

[Little Raven]

Throwing molotov cocktails and shooting the police is a severe criminal action that must be dealt with accordingly. And the way to do it is by shooting them.

As I said, a short and unglamorous political career.

No good will come of shooting them. It is possible that police may find themselves in a situation where they honestly have no choice, but even in that scenario, no good will come of it. These people are not an enemy to be conquered; they are an upset citizenry that needs to be calmed. Shooting at people today when you have to go to work beside them tomorrow is bad, bad policy.

 

[jameson]

Throwing molotov cocktails and shooting the police is a severe criminal action that must be dealt with accordingly. And the way to do it is by shooting them.

How will you get them to vote for you once they've been shot ?

 

[luiz]

Well I'm not a politician and the police should not behave taking politics into consideration either.
When they're under fire, they must respond with fire.
What makes those rioters different from the regular thug who opens fire against the cops? Nothing. And how do cops deal with regular thugs who start shooting them?

Those people are the enemy, no doubt about that. At least the ones commiting the violent acts I mentioned.

 

[Verbose]

I don't know...

Rioting in the streets is an old French speciality. Sometimes it's claimed to be a constituent element of (albeit informal) of the normal French political process.

Police response historically has depended on whether it could be assumed that the rioters had public sympathy or not. If they have it, it's kid glove time. If they don't, or loose it, then it's split skulls a go-go. (Anybody remember "Pasqua's dogs"?)

I get the impression that opinions are divided?

If the general public tires of this, then the sympathy for the people in the suburbs stuck in their no-future lives might run out.
For now a lot of Frenchmen could just be recognising that these people have been seriously short-changed for quite some time and would react badly to strong-arm tactics by the police. It's politics, not just policing, involved here.

Sarkozy and de Villepin are contenders for the presidency, and so far it seems Villepin's soothing style has given him a lead on points since Sarko's talking tough didn't really go over too well with a lot of people.

 

[storealex]

In the US, every time it's the blacks, except once or twice when it's been the Jews. (Crown Heights, IIRC.) Guess we should just deport all the black people back to Africa; obviously this whole civilization thing isn't working. But of course we should keep in mind that the rioters are only a minority.

Now you are putting words into my mouth. I would expect better from a mod, and I think you owe me an apology.
No where did I mention deportation of an entire ethinic group, so please stop making it sound like that.

Honestly, do you people even listen to yourselves? Poor minority people with few opportunities riot periodically, in every society. It's not because they're black, or because they're Muslim; it's because they believe, with some cause (just look at the comments here!) that the rest of the country is out to get them, and they want to fight back. In this case, the incident that set it off was apparently a mistake, but it could just as easily have been something more worthy of the response.

Again, I did not say it's their colour or religion. I only said it was immigrants, which is the bloody fact. Now Im perfectly aware of their problems with finding jobs, getting education, feeling like second class citizens etc. As I wrote actually, the problem is that we have been letting them in, faster than we have been integrating them into society.
I don't mind immigration, as long as the pace is not faster than we can handle it, but clearly it is at present.

Try to immagine opening your borders, having immigrants in, only to see this group overrepresentated in crime and unemployment statistics. Well then... opening the borders was obviously not a good idea. At least not THAT open. But when you suggest closing them again, some guy on a internet forum accuse you of God knows what, exaggerating what you said and putting words into you mouth...

 

[Little Raven]

Well I'm not a politician and the police should not behave taking politics into consideration either.

The first part is obvious. The second part is just stupid.

This incident is not happening in a vacuum. The police officers you suggest should be pulling the trigger are going to have to live and work next to these people for years to come. You cannot open fire in urban areas and not expect collateral damage. And people do not quickly forget being shot at, especially by their own government.

This is not a military problem to be solved with superior firepower. It isn't even a criminal problem to be solved with additional police. It's a social problem, and it's going to have to be solved by politics. A large group of people is feeling seriously marginalized by the current political process. You don't solve that with bullets.

 

[Bigfoot]

I was in the LA area during the 1992 riots. Although serious, these events sound less intense than LA was in 1992 (or in 1965 for that matter). Hell, Detroit burns a few cars every time they win a major sports championship!

I don't know what the Paris police are like, but the LAPD has had a reputation for racism and corruption that are a major part of the city's problem with race. Not that this is any excuse for the excesses of the mob, but it is not hard to see why black people in LA reacted to the Rodney King verdict the way that they did. For many the LAPD is just a bigger and better equipped gang.

 

[jameson]

Again, I did not say it's their colour or religion. I only said it was immigrants, which is the bloody fact.

It's a fact, not necessarily, or imho even mostly, the fact. You're not saying that it's their colour or religion but you are implying that these people for whatever reason aren't 'integrated' in society. Some confusion about your opinion on exactly what caused that lack of integration is would be understandable.

However, while the rioters may be partly motivated by perceived racism, I do maintain that the socioeconomics of the area are a far more important cause of the riots than race. Riots like this are not at all new or even confined to particular countries or societies like Renata pointed out. They happen in the US, in France, in England, even on a lesser scale in the Netherlands ( I'm thinking of the riots in Den Bosch after a cop shot a hooligan in selfdefense here).

 

[luiz]

This incident is not happening in a vacuum. The police officers you suggest should be pulling the trigger are going to have to live and work next to these people for years to come. You cannot open fire in urban areas and not expect collateral damage.

Gun shooting in urban areas, though not desirable, is sometimes unaviodable and happens frequently, against common criminals.
A well trained police, like the french one surely is, should be capable of handling this with acceptable precision.

And people do not quickly forget being shot at, especially by their own government.

We're talking about bandits here, thugs. It doesn't matter what they think or feel, they belong to a cell or a grave.

This is not a military problem to be solved with superior firepower. It isn't even a criminal problem to be solved with additional police. It's a social problem, and it's going to have to be solved by politics. A large group of people is feeling seriously marginalized by the current political process. You don't solve that with bullets.

Of course not, there are larger issues that must be addressed.
However a decent person that feels marginalised does not throw molotov cocktails at the police, but rather tries political means to make his voice heard.

I argue that the people commiting the violent acts do not represent the larger immigrant or muslim community of France; they are rather criminals taking advantage of the moment to carry on their delinquent behaviour.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Just to stick more about the reality of what happened in Paris, the CRS units, who are cops specialized in restoring order did charge the stone throwers, and they've even fired using flashballs (Those are kind of big guns shooting hard rubber ball). Flashballs aren't toys, it can kill someone, but it usually makes less damage than a bullet...

By the way, to all those who believe that French people are so liberal that they let rioters burning everything without doing anything during days are pathetically naive. Actually, it's very hard for me to imagine such ideas have been genuinely expressed. I can only see some kind of stinky charicature which is, as always, totally off the point.

I don't mind people talking bad about France, but why critics coming from the outside are always the opposite of the French reality ?

 

[jameson]

However a decent person that feels marginalised does not throw molotov cocktails at the police, but rather tries political means to make his voice heard.

In most countries, the poor are significantly less likely to vote regardless of the circumstances. This is only to be expected as getting involved in the political process usually requires expending time and money that the poor simply do not have. Also, the better-off will, because they have time and resources to spare that the poor do not, be more effective in pushing their agenda anyway, leading to a fundamental disenchantment with politics that leads many people to not even bother voting. Finally, if most people in a country are well-off enough, the poor might not be able to improve their position through democratic means no matter how nicely and legally they acted.

Now this may not matter if the political elites do enough to help provide opportunities for better jobs / higher income, or just make sure to throw around enough bread and games to keep the poor pacified, but if they failed in that respect, I wouldn't expect an organized political campaign against poverty to emerge.

I argue that the people commiting the violent acts do not represent the larger immigrant or muslim community of France; they are rather criminals taking advantage of the moment to carry on their delinquent behaviour.

(added a 'not' in the sentence because I think that's what you mean)

For most people, violence is a last resort. Same here. Nothing excuses looting and shooting cops, but I'd say it's more productive to look at a long term solution - which will require coopting local community leaders to find out what needs to be done - than marching in with all guns blazing; that's just fighting the symptoms, quite likely antagonizing those who didn't take part in the riots, and guaranteeing that they will flare up again, if not tomorrow then maybe next year.

 

[Marla_Singer]

In most countries, the poor are significantly less likely to vote regardless of the circumstances. This is only to be expected as getting involved in the political process usually requires expending time and money that the poor simply do not have. Also, the better-off will, because they have time and resources to spare that the poor do not, be more effective in pushing their agenda anyway, leading to a fundamental disenchantment with politics that leads many people to not even bother voting. Finally, if most people in a country are well-off enough, the poor might not be able to improve their position through democratic means no matter how nicely and legally they acted.

Generally when you're poor, your life is more difficult, as such, you tend to believe less in politics. If you don't believe politics really change things, you're less inclined to vote.

Now this may not matter if the political elites do enough to help provide opportunities for better jobs / higher income, or just make sure to throw around enough bread and games to keep the poor pacified, but if they failed in that respect, I wouldn't expect an organized political campaign against poverty to emerge.

I'm not really sure appeasing the poors is a way to make them trust in politics.

As it's said in Civ4, "give a fish to a poor and you'll feed him for one day, learn him to fish and you'll feed him for the rest of his life".

 

[jameson]

Generally when you're poor, your life is more difficult, as such, you tend to believe less in politics. If you don't believe politics really change things, you're less inclined to vote.

Yeah well, I was trying to explain why the poor don't tend to believe that politics really change things. So you're arguing with what exactly ?

I'm not really sure appeasing the poors is a way to make them trust in politics.

I wasn't putting this forward as a way to make them trust in politics, I was trying to explain why they were rioting without any kind of value judgment attached.

 

[Marla_Singer]

James, when we answer a post, it's not necessarily to oppose it. Where have you seen I was disagreeing with you ? I've simply added my 2 cents...

 

[Marla_Singer]

Anyway, I think the title of this thread "Paris burning" completely minimizes the current situation. A better title would have been "Paris is bombed out", or "Paris is in ruins, archeologists are trying to find where it used to be"...