Paris burning

[LordRahl]

By the way, there's no real lootings in those riots. People are simply burning cars (and some buildings such as schools, kindergardens, gymnasiums...). When they burn a car concession, it's not to steal cars. They burn to put the mess, and now directly flee after having burnt their stuff..

Thanks for sharing this great piece of news, because I was really starting to worry that things are getting a little out of hand there. But like you keep stating it's just some teens burning a car here and there, and maybe a school every now and then, so nothing to worry about. I mean, come on - only 814 cars burned last night, which is a big improvement from 1400 from the night before... Again - no reason for concern - it happens all over the world

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051108/ap_on_re_eu/france_rioting

 

[Verbose]

A further thought about the willingness to see Islam or "Arab culture" as the reason behind this:

Is this somehow tribal?

Maybe, but not in the sense that somehow a piece of Mideastistan or Islamistan has mysteriously transferred to France.

It started in a kind of French Suburbistan that has never existed elsewhere before. It's a homegrown French problem.

Now, if a riot occurs in a predominatley black suburb in the US (it happens occasionally), no one is going to start raving about Mandingo, Nuba or Fulbe "traditional culture" to explain it.

It would make as much sense to do THAT, as trying to explain what's happening in France right now with references to what Islam is assumed to be about.

So why are people trying?

 

[Shaihulud]

The whole operation sounds abit coordinated to have risen randomly. I mean although teenagers are said to be easily lead astrayed and to follow the latest trend, you don't go out and burn cars just because of a text message you recieve. It must have taken time and effort to organise, this might mean that ultimately, someone is reponsible for the chaos. The instigator/s can be punished, blamed. I don't really think that the riots are caused by organised criminals as the recent events are detrimental to their operations, increased police presence, investigation, policy changes regarding the slum areas etc. Terrorist? The event caused a gulf of seperation between the muslim french and non-muslim french (most of the rioters are said to be muslims even if the religion plays no role). However I can't believe that terrorist have such a strong ties to the Muslim youth without alerting the authorities. When the whole thing is over, I would like to know who is going to get blame for the riot. The personage would show what are France future policies alot.

 

[Steph]

Ok well now that curfews are going to be imposed in trouble spots, how will they be enforced? If police encounter a group of 'rioters' armed with molotov cocktails, are they allowed to open fire on them?

The goal is to arrest them and trial them. Did you notice one of the spark was the accidental death of two youngs? Do you think killing some non accidentaly will help?

 

[Steph]

The swarming tactics you speak of actually has happend, on quite a different scale, in our own struggle in Vietnam (and Iraq). ~Chris

Great succes in Vietnam! Great success in Iraq! You have been there for quite some time now, and we still hear about attacks and death everyday.
Beside, the American people may not take it to seriously when the Army shoot at Iraqis. But what if it was at American citizens?

 

[Steph]

Hhhmmmm...I don't think it is too difficult to lock down the areas affected by rioting, shoot these gasoline bomb throwers with rubber bullets, cuff them, and throw them in jail. These attempted murderers ought to be dealt with swiftly, and I think then the remaining rioters would think twice before throwing another gas bomb.
~Chris

During the night from Sunday to Monday, there was riots in more than 250 different "communes" (we have 36000 communes in France).
So it's not that easy for the police to be everywhere at once. The problem s the spread of the riots. If it was localozed in one spot, it could be locked down. But it's not.

Part of the rioters are using internet blogs to challenge each others to see what banlieux will burn the most cars the next night.

I think this kind of riot is relatively new.

 

[Steph]

Don't you think it is being soft to declare that people throwing gas bombs at police are not trying to kill them?
~Chris

Like when the minister of the interior declare the rioters are scum? That when you attack firemen and policmen you are a villain? What when you attack a bus or disabled people you are a criminal?

 

[aneeshm]

Actually some of modern France's greatest philosphers were born in Northern Africa.

Derrida and Camus were born in and lived in Northen Africa before they came to France.

And they became great only after they came to France . How exactly does this contradict what I said ( as the language seems to imply ) ?

 

[aneeshm]

It is almost all about money. Making money. Improving oneself's living conditions. Otherwise many of them would stay in their beloved country. I don't think immigrants come to France because of France's culture, or France's military might, or what else...? BTW it's exactly the same in the USA. It is about making money. You can brag about it is about freedom and democracy and stuff, the first thing someone wants is money. MONEY.

Then I would say that it is the fault of French society for not making these immigrants realise that when they come for money , they will get what they came for , and nothing else .

 

[aneeshm]

Well, at least your liberal credentials remain sterling. Cost always enters into it, my friend. There's no such thing as a free lunch.

The costs are more than just financial, though. There's a matter of raising a force big enough to secure that much territory. There are issues of jurisdiction and command, policy and goals. These are not simple concepts that can be successfully worked out on the fly. France is facing something that no country has ever faced before. Let's not fall over ourselves in shock because they fail to successfully deal with it in two weeks.On this we agree. Order must be restored. That may require the brute force approach. But France needs to be aware that brute force is a very short term solution. If you have to outspend your opponent a hundred to one in order to stay even, long term success is doubtful.

So you come over at last .

Did you think that I was suggesting brute force as a permanent option ? Of course not . It was to be used merely to control the riots , after which work could begin on a long-term solution ( a peaceful one ) .

 

[aneeshm]

A further thought about the willingness to see Islam or "Arab culture" as the reason behind this:

Is this somehow tribal?

Maybe, but not in the sense that somehow a piece of Mideastistan or Islamistan has mysteriously transferred to France.

It started in a kind of French Suburbistan that has never existed elsewhere before. It's a homegrown French problem.

Now, if a riot occurs in a predominatley black suburb in the US (it happens occasionally), no one is going to start raving about Mandingo, Nuba or Fulbe "traditional culture" to explain it.

It would make as much sense to do THAT, as trying to explain what's happening in France right now with references to what Islam is assumed to be about.

So why are people trying?

Islam is only one of many factors ( though you have to admit , it's a thing around which rioters can rally ) . The culture these people brought with them was moulded by Islam ( but that is very , very tangential to the issue at hand ) .

The point I'm trying to make is that it's not really so "homegrown" as you think . These people have lived within a strong community , even if that community be located in France , and are thus as such not part of the mainstream of French life or the French way of living . They have formed a mini society of their own in their own quarters , and wherever these two societies overlap , these are riots today . Deny this if you can .

 

[aneeshm]

And yet the problem is not that these kids are thugish primatives in need of a strongman. The problem is that they are utilizing technology to take low-tech unrest to a whole new level.

You don't need Akhbar the Headsman. You need (more) Big Brother on the Information Superhighway.

Now isn't that a pleasant thought?

Why is it that only these poeple need more Big Brother on the info superhighway ? How come everyone could get by nicely without this Big Brother before they came ?

 

[Winner]

No one is soft towards rioters. That's an urban legend coming from Americans being convinced by the state propaganda having pictured French people as cowards. But it's totally disconnected from the reality. That's what Bozo Erectus has not understood.

No, just you're downplaying the importance of these events. In fact, you sound like everything was all-right and absolutely fine. It's just cars and buildings, so what. And you foreigners are stupid, you know nothing about it, so shut up and be quiet.

Right

Police is soft against the rioters. Why I think so? Simply because the riots are still there!

It's like that saying, you know, the operation was successful, but the patient died.

 

[Shylock]

Lucky Muslims. Liting stuff on fire is fun.

 

[Winner]

Lucky Muslims. Liting stuff on fire is fun.

Shooting them is funnier. I volunteer, give me a gun and impunity, and I'll show you how to deal with the rioters

 

[IglooDame]

And yet the problem is not that these kids are thugish primatives in need of a strongman. The problem is that they are utilizing technology to take low-tech unrest to a whole new level.

You don't need Akhbar the Headsman. You need (more) Big Brother on the Information Superhighway.

Now isn't that a pleasant thought?

I'm going to have to put you on ignore, if you keep handing out these hideously depressing thoughts like this...

 

[IglooDame]

Indeed, what you're missing is the post you're answering to.

Cops are out every evening at 6pm. When rioters see that, they burn stuff in other districts of the city, where there are no cops waiting for them. As such, the streets affected are those where there are no cops. There are more than 10 million people in Paris urban area. It's impossible to put cops at every junctions of such a wide area.

By the way the large majority of troublemakers are actually more fire-raisers than rioters. They burn stuff and fastly flee before anyone come around. The nature of the riots have massively changed in 11 days.

On the US news last night (ABC nightly news, from what I recall) it was mentioned that though French authorities are making many arrests every night, they're letting them out after three or four hours and the rioters then go out the next night and continue rioting. Can you give any insight into this?

 

[Marla_Singer]

No, just you're downplaying the importance of these events. In fact, you sound like everything was all-right and absolutely fine. It's just cars and buildings, so what. And you foreigners are stupid, you know nothing about it, so shut up and be quiet.

Right

Police is soft against the rioters. Why I think so? Simply because the riots are still there!

It's like that saying, you know, the operation was successful, but the patient died.

That's your absurd interpretation of it.

If I say that Police is indeed strong on those events, and that despite this it became out of hand in spreading to all the neighbourhoods, then to all the cities of the country, how can you conclude I'm "downplaying the importance of these events"... that's totally absurd !

Those who are "downplaying the importance of these events" are those who believe that few tanks in the city would restore order. Something which is utterly wrong for the simple reason that a tank can't chase a scooter.

If those events are worrying, it's exactly because they've spread to all the sinistred neighbourhoods in France. Everywhere ! You have obviously no idea of the phenomenon happening.

 

[Marla_Singer]

On the US news last night (ABC nightly news, from what I recall) it was mentioned that though French authorities are making many arrests every night, they're letting them out after three or four hours and the rioters then go out the next night and continue rioting. Can you give any insight into this?

The figure is raising everyday but over 1,500 people have been incarcerated. Those people will be judged in "comparution immédiate", which means really fast. The first rioters have already been judged, and they've been sentenced to jail (from 1 month to 2 years according to the severness of facts).

 

[CurtSibling]

My father is in a tower block near the Champs-Elysées, and says he can see nothing out of the ordinary.

All is as normal as Paris usually is, he reports.

Methinks the media is blowing this out of proportion.

.