Pastor on trial

[Daw]

Irrelevant to this particular case, some people do deserve coming for them, don't they?

So, in every case of somebody coming for someone, it is necessary to define whether the said someone is worth coming for.

The problem is that with a variety of people answering this question, you get a variety of diverse answers. Being settled the democratic way:

Spoiler :

Step 1: Preparation, one side making their point:

Spoiler :

Step 2: Preparation, the other side making their point:

Spoiler :

Step 3: Sides exchange their opinions about each other's points:

Spoiler :

Step 4: Onset of the debate

Spoiler :

. . .

Step 5: The debate process

Spoiler :

- it often ends up ugly in the aftermath.

So, "Merry Christmas" is really the answer I like. I mean, who would possibly argue that? For that, Merry Christmas!

 

[warpus]

Either people are 'hysterical' and get offended too easily (which is a serious reaction), or we shouldn't care if people are offended. Which?

Why should anyone except the people getting offended care if people are getting offended?

I mean, unless this is a hate crime, in which case there is more going on there than just people getting offended.

Frankly, if that is a prosecutable line in online communications British internet users should be very afraid.

Devil's advocate time: He did say that he doesn't trust *any* Muslims, including "good" ones, including Muslims he has never met. That is bigotry and racism first of all, and since Muslims have lately been a somewhat persecuted minority, that could very well qualify as hate speech.

I mean, how about this hypothetical example.. I fly down to Los Angeles or Chicago or something, organize a speech somewhere titled "Black people - I just don't trust them", rent out a hall of some sort, and invite whoever wants to attend. Then I talk about how there are some "good" black people out there, but that I don't trust those "good" blacks either, not to mention all the "bad" black people. They're all bad, not to be trusted, etc.

That's clearly a hate crime, no?

But like, guys, don't nail this guy for offending people, that's idiotic and dangerous. Whether it is or isn't a hate crime might be up for debate, but that's the really only thing that would make sense to prosecute this guy for.

 

[aelf]

Why should anyone except the people getting offended care if people are getting offended?

You say that here. But if you don't care, why worry about SJWs and student protests about taking offense at certain things?

 

[warpus]

You say that here. But if you don't care, why worry about SJWs and student protests about taking offense at certain things?

When have I ever worried about SJWs getting butthurt over something? And why bring them into this conversation anyway? What are you trying to get at?

The point is that legally speaking nobody cares if you're offended. That's your problem (generic you, not you you) and nobody else's.

 

[Kyriakos]

Speech can only logically be a crime if it very directly leads to physical harm or very obvious (and affecting others as well if they had been in the specific victim's place) phychological torment.

Making speech a crime in cases of either non-direct harm, or SJW-level cis-harm, is a terrible move, and likely legislated due to other motives TPTB have.

 

[chijohnaok]

There are several (3 I believe) "hate crime" laws at the federal level in the US. There are also a majority of states that have passed laws of one sort or another against "hate crimes".
See here for more details:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_crime_laws_in_the_United_States

I can't speak to the state level laws as I have not really read up on them, but the federal "hate crime" laws generally involve the use of physical violence against someone. To my knowledge, one would not generally be prosecuted (at the federal level) for a hate crime if it simply involved words said by one person that might be considered offensive by another. In fact, I believe that the US Supreme Court has on multiple occasions judged that 'offensive' speech in and of itself is protected under the free speech section of the First Amendment.

So in my opinion (I am not an attorney) Warpus' example of organizing a meeting in California that spoke negatively about black people would not be a "hate crime" (at least under federal law. I have not read the California hate crime statute, so I cannot speak to that). Saying that might be "offensive" or even considered "hateful" by some, but it would not be a "hate crime" unless it was accompanied by physical violence.

 

[Kyriakos]

There are several (3 I believe) "hate crime" laws at the federal level in the US. There are also a majority of states that have passed laws of one sort or another against "hate crimes".
See here for more details:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_crime_laws_in_the_United_States

I can't speak to the state level laws as I have not really read up on them, but the federal "hate crime" laws generally involve the use of physical violence against someone. To my knowledge, one would not generally be prosecuted (at the federal level) for a hate crime if it simply involved words said by one person that might be considered offensive by another. In fact, I believe that the US Supreme Court has on multiple occasions judged that 'offensive' speech in and of itself is protected under the free speech section of the First Amendment.

So in my opinion (I am not an attorney) Warpus' example of organizing a meeting in California that spoke negatively about black people would not be a "hate crime" (at least under federal law. I have not read the California hate crime statute, so I cannot speak to that). Saying that might be "offensive" or even considered "hateful" by some, but it would not be a "hate crime" unless it was accompanied by physical violence.

Weren't teen FB/Twitter posters arrested for 'threatening' to beat/kill Obama? I am it is not very likely they would be able to do so, even if we assume they would try..

 

[aelf]

When have I ever worried about SJWs getting butthurt over something? And why bring them into this conversation anyway? What are you trying to get at?

Because you were in the other thread lamenting the fact that some students were offended about the food being served, were you not? So you care enough to post to complain about them, eh?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

So in my opinion (I am not an attorney) Warpus' example of organizing a meeting in California that spoke negatively about black people would not be a "hate crime" (at least under federal law. I have not read the California hate crime statute, so I cannot speak to that). Saying that might be "offensive" or even considered "hateful" by some, but it would not be a "hate crime" unless it was accompanied by physical violence.

The line is thin, and flexible, so tread carefully.

What makes this shaky legal ground is "inciting to violence." Different legal systems have different responses but the issue of "do we have to wait for the rabble to do harm before we act against a rabble rouser" is being explored just about everywhere.

 

[Zkribbler]

"Happy Holidays" - the phrase that ended America in the late 21st century. Look upon me, and despair!

I agree. Only true Christmas should be wished joy and happiness during the month of December. To offer best wishes to people of other religions and people who have no religion is anti-American.

 

[Zkribbler]

That's clearly a hate crime, no?

Because there's no crime...no.

If you beat someone up because he's gay, that's a hate crime.
If you castrate someone because he's black, that's a hate crime.
If you throw acid into the face of a schoolgirl because you believe girls should not be educated, that's a hate crime.
If you burn down a Mosque because you hate Muslims, that's a hate crime.

 

[luiz]

I agree. Only true Christmas should be wished joy and happiness during the month of December. To offer best wishes to people of other religions and people who have no religion is anti-American.

I wish my Muslim friends happy Ramadan and happy Eid, even though I'm not Muslim. Christmas is a Christian celebration, so why wouldn't people from other faiths wish their Christian friends (be them religious or cultural Christians) a merry Christmas? In fact I've been wished a merry Christmas but plenty of Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews...

What a silly polemic.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

I wish my Muslim friends happy Ramadan and happy Eid, even though I'm not Muslim. Christman is a Christian celebration, why wouldn't people from other faiths wish their Christian friends (be them religious or cultural Christians) a merry Christmas? In fact I've been wished a merry Christmas but plenty of Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews...

What a silly polemic.

Yeah, people who het offended about Merry Christmas are dicks. but people who get offended about Happy Holidays are also dicks.

Having said that, Christmas is in two weeks you bunch of heretics.

 

[Daw]

Christmas is in two weeks you bunch of heretics.

Yeah! Orthodox legions are growing day by day, Holy Crusade is imminent!

Spoiler :

 

[luiz]

Yeah, people who het offended about Merry Christmas are dicks. but people who get offended about Happy Holidays are also dicks.

Having said that, Christmas is in two weeks you bunch of heretics.

Oh I agree. There's nothing offensive about "Happy Holidays".

But I've never been wished that in my life by anyone except politically correct Americans always on their toes not to offend anyone (Ie, Christmas emails from US companies usually say "Happy Holidays", because they wrongly assume it would offend a Muslim or a Jew to receive a Merry Christmas card).

By contrast, all my friends from other religions have always wished me a merry Christmas. Go figure.

The reason why we have the 25th of December off is the Christian holiday called Christmas. Deal with it, haters.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Oh I agree. There's nothing offensive about "Happy Holidays".

But I've never been wished that in my life by anyone except politically correct Americans always on their toes not to offend anyone

I find this incredibly hard to believe, though you are relatively young. The co-opting of "Happy Holidays" into the "OMG you MUST just be trying to be PC!!!!" movement is pretty recent. For most of my life "Happy Holidays" was just something people said because saying "Merry Christmas," or pretty much anything else, over and over and over is boring. So people said "Merry Christmas," or "Happy Holidays," or "Seasons Greetings," or whatever other meaningless noise happened to trip off their tongue and nobody got excited about any of it.

If I tell you "Happy Holidays" you can count on the fact that I did NOT put any great thought into how it would interact with your religious or political views, nor did I carefully craft a two word greeting as if it were a major statement of my own views.

Bing Crosby, 1942. Was he trying to be "politically correct"?

 

[Birdjaguar]

I would just ignore the guy until he starts advocating violence. He is just another idiot spewing for attention. I suggest that once twice a year we host a hate-a-thon and give all of these types a stage from which to speak their minds to one another. Bring all the imams, preachers, ardent Zionists, Nazis, and hate filled revolutionaries together at one place and time to give their speeches on C-span (to help their ratings). Put them in the spotlight and let the pundits have a go with commentary. Mix the audience with supporters of from all the groups and give them all boxing gloves so they can go at it on the floor.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I find this incredibly hard to believe, though you are relatively young. The co-opting of "Happy Holidays" into the "OMG you MUST just be trying to be PC!!!!" movement is pretty recent. For most of my life "Happy Holidays" was just something people said because saying "Merry Christmas," or pretty much anything else, over and over and over is boring. So people said "Merry Christmas," or "Happy Holidays," or "Seasons Greetings," or whatever other meaningless noise happened to trip off their tongue and nobody got excited about any of it.

If I tell you "Happy Holidays" you can count on the fact that I did NOT put any great thought into how it would interact with your religious or political views, nor did I carefully craft a two word greeting as if it were a major statement of my own views.

Bing Crosby, 1942. Was he trying to be "politically correct"?

Tim is exactly right. I've been through many decades of Christmas and in every one "Merry Christmas," or "Happy Holidays," or "Seasons Greetings," were all frequently used.

IIRC, at the end of "A Night Before Christmas" Santa says "Happy Christmas to all and to all a good night."

 

[Camikaze]

'Happy Holidays' is a uniquely American expression, though (I dunno, maybe it's used in like Canada or somewhere too). And internationally I'd say it's generally associated with attempts not to offend those who don't want to mention Christmas, particularly given Americans don't really seem to have any holidays to be happy about. The reality might be quite different, but the phrase has baggage.

 

[abradley]

The old fool misquoted.