patriotism?

[timtofly]

Actually he claims to be a libertarian like Formy. Maybe it is that no one can tell who libertarians are in American any more than socialist can be separated from liberals?

 

[Formaldehyde]

He is also a far-right Republican.

Once again, libertarianism is the opposite of authoritarianism just as liberalism is the opposite of conservatism. This is from the 2008 election:

But what makes it confusing is that Ron Paul styles himself as a libertarian as well, but he is actually a bit more authoritarian than libertarian while being extremely far-right. The reason he seems so libertarian is because most ultraconservatives are staunch authoritarians. Dommy is the same way.

And what makes it even more confusing is the Libertarian Party. They too are typically staunch conservatives and not nearly as libertarian as many centrists and liberals are.

 

[MobBoss]

Even after I pointed out what the word "partisan" actually means? Merely because I disagree with your clearly partisan approach to most political issues doesn't make me a Democrat.

You have shown again you really don't know anything about my actual opinions which I have even stated numerous times in this forum, much less have any basis to complain about how I correctly use words which you apparently don't even understand.

Form, your own words speak louder than your simple opinion of yourself. Sure, I hear what you claim, but I read what you post. The two arent anywhere near each other.

Actually he claims to be a libertarian like Formy. Maybe it is that no one can tell who libertarians are in American any more than socialist can be separated from liberals?

My opinion is libertarians are mostly anti-democrat with the exception being some specific issues....i.e. they are more isolationist not wanting the USA in foreign wars, pro-drug legalization as this espouses their desire to see less government control over our lives. But aside from those two particular issues, a lot of their base beliefs run quite contrary to most democrats.

I mean there is a reason Ron Paul, a noted libertarian, runs on the GOP ticket, and a large number of the tea party are avowed libertarians as well. libertarian beliefs generally run more consistent with conservative beliefs as opposed to liberal beliefs (with some few exceptions duely noted).

And this is also why I dont really buy into Form self-proclaiming him being a libertarian. His comments dont really conform to the mold.

 

[Traitorfish]

He is also a far-right Republican.

Once again, libertarianism is the opposite of authoritarianism just as liberalism is the opposite of conservatism.

What.

My opinion is propertarian are mostly anti-democrat with the exception being some specific issues....i.e. they are more isolationist not wanting the USA in foreign wars, pro-drug legalization as this espouses their desire to see less government control over our lives. But aside from those two particular issues, a lot of their base beliefs run quite contrary to most democrats.

I mean there is a reason Ron Paul, a noted propertarian, runs on the GOP ticket, and a large number of the tea party are avowed propertarians as well. propertarian beliefs generally run more consistent with conservative beliefs as opposed to liberal beliefs (with some few exceptions duely noted).

And this is also why I dont really buy into Form self-proclaiming him being a propertarian. His comments dont really conform to the mold.

(Translated for the international market.)

 

[Formaldehyde]

You mean that the left (liberals) is the opposite of the right (conservatives) on the political scale is news to you?

 

[Traitorfish]

Entirely so, yes. Even if I uncritically adopt local conventions, it goes left (socialists), centre (liberals), right (conservatives), and neither are really understood as the inversion of the other. This grand dichotomy is a uniquely American conviction, and I do not think it is a coincidence that it lines up so very neatly with how you organise your party-politics.

 

[Cutlass]

Form, your own words speak louder than your simple opinion of yourself. Sure, I hear what you claim, but I read what you post. The two arent anywhere near each other.



My opinion is libertarians are mostly anti-democrat with the exception being some specific issues....i.e. they are more isolationist not wanting the USA in foreign wars, pro-drug legalization as this espouses their desire to see less government control over our lives. But aside from those two particular issues, a lot of their base beliefs run quite contrary to most democrats.

I mean there is a reason Ron Paul, a noted libertarian, runs on the GOP ticket, and a large number of the tea party are avowed libertarians as well. libertarian beliefs generally run more consistent with conservative beliefs as opposed to liberal beliefs (with some few exceptions duely noted).

And this is also why I dont really buy into Form self-proclaiming him being a libertarian. His comments dont really conform to the mold.

A real libertarian wouldn't have anything to do with Republicans even with a gun to their heads. Just the fact that they would associate with the GOPers is a complete admission on their parts that they reject liberty!

 

[Formaldehyde]

Entirely so, yes. Even if I uncritically adopt local conventions, it goes left (socialists), centre (liberals), right (conservatives), and neither are really understood as the inversion of the other. This grand dichotomy is a uniquely American conviction, and I do not think it is a coincidence that it lines up so very neatly with how you organise your party-politics.

The center is not liberals on the political compass graph. It is centrists. Socialists are just further to the left, or ultra-liberals if you prefer.

A real libertarian wouldn't have anything to do with Republicans even with a gun to their heads. Just the fact that they would associate with the GOPers is a complete admission on their parts that they reject liberty!

It is really quite simple. From the perspective of authoritarianism, libertarians are just the opposite. And that is quite different from the current Libertarian Party and the Tea Party which are typically not very libertarian at all, but the former are usually far less authoritarian than the typical Republicans.

At one time, the Libertarian Party had nearly as many liberals in it as it had conservatives. But people like Lew Rockwell deliberately chased them away to turn it into what it is today.

 

[Traitorfish]

The center is not liberals on the political compass graph. It is centrists.

"Centrists are in the centre" is a tautology, no more meaningful than "far-lefists are on the far-left". It doesn't actually tell you anything about what the "centre" means in terms of ideology or in terms of concrete politics.

Socialists are merely far-left liberals.

Do you know anything, at all, about modern European history?

And I think it speaks volumes of how you "organize your party politics".

I'm afraid I don't follow.

 

[madviking]

You mean that the left (liberals) is the opposite of the right (conservatives) on the political scale is news to you?

Liberalism isn't left-wing at all.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Not classical liberalism, no. But in terms of US politics it certainly is. In terms of the former, yes I would agree that is in the middle of the political compass graph.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_liberalism_in_the_United_States

American versus European use of the term "liberalism"

Today the word "liberalism" is used differently in different countries. One of the greatest contrasts is between the usage in the United States and usage in Continental Europe. According to Arthur Schlesinger, Jr. (writing in 1956), "Liberalism in the American usage has little in common with the word as used in the politics of any European country, save possibly Britain."[25] In continental Europe, liberalism usually means what is sometimes called classical liberalism, a commitment to limited government and laissez-faire economics, and more closely corresponds to the American definition of libertarianism—itself a term which in Europe is instead often applied to left-libertarianism. However this is not consistently the case, as with the: Liberal Democrats (United Kingdom) - especially the Beveridge Group faction, Liberal People's Party (Sweden), Danish Social Liberal Party, and the Democratic Movement (France), for example. Some nominally liberal parties (e.g. VVD in The Netherlands) are actually conservative right wing "law and order" parties[citation needed].

Self-identified liberals are the smallest ideological bloc in the US. They make up about 20% of the American population, with roughly 6% identifying as very liberal. Over the last two decades, the proportion of both liberals and conservatives have increased, while those self-identifying as moderates have decreased.[26]

In US terms, the middle of the political compass graph is "moderate" or "centrist".

 

[Traitorfish]

I think you are attributing an unreasonable level of weight to the idiosyncratic jargon of late modern American politics.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Only it isn't "idiosyncratic jargon". As the Wiki above points out, it is merely using different words to mean essentially the same thing. Yes, it can occasionally be very confusing. But it is really only a matter of semantics.

 

[MobBoss]

A real libertarian wouldn't have anything to do with Republicans even with a gun to their heads. Just the fact that they would associate with the GOPers is a complete admission on their parts that they reject liberty!

So Ron Paul was never a real libertarian? I mean he was only on the libertarian ticket for President once....how could he be a real libertarian?

 

[Traitorfish]

Only it isn't "idiosyncratic jargon". As the Wiki above points out, it is merely using different words to mean essentially the same thing. Yes, it can occasionally be very confusing. But it is really only a matter of semantics.

If it's mere semantics, why were you just claiming that liberalism and conservatism are direct inversions of each other, and that socialism is just a radical permutation of liberalism? That seems like rather more than semantics.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Again, your use of the word "liberal" means "moderate" to us, not "left-wing" at all.

 

[MobBoss]

Again, your use of the word "liberal" means "moderate" to us, not "left-wing" at all.

What's this 'us' stuff?

 

[Formaldehyde]

So Ron Paul was never a real libertarian? I mean he was only on the libertarian ticket for President once....how could he be a real libertarian?

How many times has the difference between libertarians and the Libertarian Party come up and been explained in this forum?

What's this 'us' stuff?

Indeed. I obviously meant most of us. Those who can look at the Political Compass and see there is a huge difference between libertarians and Dr. Ron Paul, who is actually more authoritarian than he is a libertarian, as the graph above makes quite clear.

 

[Traitorfish]

Again, your use of the word "liberal" means "moderate" to us, not "left-wing" at all.

"Liberal" isn't just a folksy way of referring to the political centre, it refers to a specific (albeit broad) ideology that is identified as being centrist in relation to the two other (broad) ideological tendencies in European, socialism and conservatism. Before the rise of socialism in the late 19th century, it was regarded as being on the left.

There is no transhistorical Principle of Leftness, facing and opposed to an equivalent Principle of Rightness, taking on the fleeting historical guises of "liberalism", "socialism", etc. in the process of waging its eternal and pre-historical war. There are specific ideologies, such as liberalism and socialism (or, more realistically, such as e.g. late Victorian popular British Liberalism and popular front-era Marxism-Leninism) and we construct abstract structures such as the "left-right" axis to provide short-hand descriptions of their relationship to each other.

 

[MobBoss]

How many times has the difference between libertarians and the Libertarian Party come up and been explained in this forum?

How many tiimes can a goal post be moved? I mean you basically made up your own definitions all throughout this thread according to your perceptions, why not one more?

Indeed. I obviously meant most of us. I certainly wasn't trying to include you.

Aw someone has their crabby pants on.