patriotism?

Again, it isn't "moving the goal posts" at all to look at the graph above and notice that Dr. Ron Paul is actually more an authoritarian than he is a libertarian.

And repeating the same obviously untrue comment doesn't make it more credible. It is how the terms were used in my Western civ college class, and I daresay most colleges in the US teach exactly the same thing. If you can actually prove I have misused any words in this thread, go right ahead.
 
Again, it isn't "moving the goal posts" at all to look at the graph above and notice that Dr. Ron Paul is actually more an authoritarian than he is a libertarian.

So does that mean Ralph Nader is your write-in candidate for President then? :confused:
 
Does Ron Paul even describe himself as a libertarian? I've only ever heard him described as that by others, and as far as I am aware he tends to identify as a conservative, or if some prefix is necessary "paleoconservative" or "small-government conservative".
 
Was he ever actually a member of the Libertarian Party? That seems more significant. Running on their ticket isn't necessarily anything more than opportunism.
 
However, not being a member of the party could equally just mean he disagrees with them and their leadership, rather than their ideology.
 
Dr Paul is the darling of the Libertarian Party. He is only running as a Republican to get far more exposure.

Again, the Libertarian Party, as it has been for decades now, is far from being about libertarianism as it once was. Most of the people in this forum who aren't far-right are more libertarian than Ron Paul is. After all, he is for re-criminalizing abortion, for "traditional marriage", thinks separation of church and state doesn't exist, and is constantly complaining about "secularists" while hyping Christianity, which aren't a libertarian positions at all.

Authoritarian or Libertarian? Ron Paul on Church/State Separation, Secularism

Ron Paul is frequently portrayed as a "sensible" conservative and staunch libertarian, thus making him increasingly attractive as a presidential candidate. He's being strongly promoted to libertarians, conservatives fed up with Bush and the Christian Right, and Democrats dissatisfied with the current crop of Democratic candidates. At the same time, though, Ron Paul demonstrates the limits of wedding libertarianism with social and political conservatism. They simply don't mesh well.

Ron Paul's consistent anti-war position has made him popular, but how many people also understand his rejection of secularism and church/state separation? How many realize that his "states' rights" rhetoric is a mask concealing a desire to use the government to promote "traditional marriage" and criminalize abortion? Ron Paul is only a "libertarian" where and when it's convenient. Much of the rest of the time, he's not merely a social conservative but a religious conservative promoting an agenda very close to that of Christian Nationalists.

If Ron Paul were a serious contender for the presidency, he'd be a significant threat to American secularism and liberty. Fortunately, he seems to have about as much chance of getting elected as I do — but this doesn’t mean that his candidacy won't influence people for the worse. In particular, I'm concerned about people learning to accept anti-secularism while making excuses for him and their support of him. The first and most important step in preventing that is to examine his ideas now and explain not only how wrong they are, but also why they represent such a threat.

According to Ron Paul himself (via Brent Rasmussen)

Through perverse court decisions and years of cultural indoctrination, the elitist, secular Left has managed to convince many in our nation that religion must be driven from public view. The justification is always that someone, somewhere, might possibly be offended or feel uncomfortable living in the midst of a largely Christian society, so all must yield to the fragile sensibilities of the few.

It should be noted right at the beginning that Ron Paul consistently decries "secularism" and "secularists," though he more often uses the label "secular Left." This, perhaps more than many of his arguments, makes it clear where stands: squarely and unambiguously against a secular government, secular laws, and a secular America. This helps put him in the same camp as the extremist Christian Right.

The second thing to note is that there isn't a single word in the above that's true. Ron Paul is employing a falsehood which has been very popular with theocrats of the Christian Right who seek to deceive voters about what secularism is and what the separation of church & state is all about. Ron Paul has either been duped by those deceivers, or he knows better yet is actively participating in the deception.

No one has launched any court cases seeking to drive religion "from public view." There have been no organized efforts to prevent people from promoting religion in public, from having religious images on their front lawns, or engaging in religious evangelism in the community. What's actually been happening is that people have tried to stop the "public," which is to say public funds and institutions, from promoting, supporting, or endorsing the religion of just some of the citizens. Usually those offering dishonest claims about this rely upon ambiguity in the word "public" (in public view vs. publicly funded), but Ron Paul doesn't even do this — his is an unambiguously false claim.

A true libertarian would support efforts to stop the government from funding and supporting one religion out of many. Libertarians believe in less government combined with private action, which is exactly what the "secular Left" is seeking to achieve in the context of religion. Libertarians believe that the scope of government action should be limited to only that which the Constitution authorizes — and when it comes to religion, the government is not authorized to do anything.

Ron Paul is not a libertarian when it comes to his own personal religious beliefs — he seems to believe that in a "largely Christian society," the government magically acquires the authority to promote and endorse Christianity. Of course, this means endorsing and promoting one particular version of Christianity out of all the possibilities. Ron Paul doesn't seem to mind this — or perhaps he supports it in the hopes that his form of Christianity will be the one favored?

Ron Paul Rated by Conservative Groups

Let's look at how various conservative and Christian Right groups have rated Ron Paul:

Family Research Council, 2005: 75%
John Birch Society, Summer '06, Spring '05, Fall '04, Summer '03: 100%
John Birch Society, Spring 2004: 88%
Concerned Women for America, 2005-2006: 62%
Eagle Forum, 2005: 71%
American Conservative Union, 2005: 76%
Christian Coalition, 2004: 76%
National Right to Life Committee, 2005-2006: 56%
Then there are these ratings:

Secular Coalition for America, 2006: 20%
Planned Parenthood, 2006: 20%
American Civil Liberties Union, 2005-2006: 55%
NAACP, 2005: 52%
Human Rights Campaign, 2003-2004: 25%

The ratings here for the ACLU and NAACP aren't too bad, but over all this does not paint a pretty picture. No one who can get 100% from the John Birch Society and 75% from the Family Research Council, but only 20% from the Secular Coalition for America, is a much of a friend of personal liberty.

Ron Paul supports a religious over a secular society on a number of other levels as well. He opposes Roe v. Wade and believes that it should be overturned. His preference would be for abortion to be criminalized and, contrary to most libertarians he doesn't not treat this as a states' rights matter. He would impose the ban at the federal level if necessary. Ron Paul also opposes states' rights when it comes to same-sex marriage: rather than let them work it out for themselves, he would use the power of the federal government to restrict gay marriage and prevent gay couples from being treated equally.

Ron Paul thus opposes protecting the liberty of women and the liberty of gays when they would use that liberty in a manner contrary to his personal religious beliefs. This is consistent with his support of using government funds and power to promote his religious beliefs over and above the religious beliefs of any other citizens. The libertarians supporting Ron Paul have either been duped into supporting an authoritarian, or are actually like Ron Paul in that they are really more authoritarian than they let on.
It is far more the latter than the former. Many so-called libertarians in the Libertarian Party share the same problems and issues nowadays. They have become far more authoritarian than they once were.

Ron Paul: the Venn diagram

venn-of-paul.jpg


Mother Jones attempts a taxonomy of libertarian thought in order to figure out where Ron Paul fits. My feeling is that Ron Paul can only be understood by abandoning the traditional one-dimensions left-right political axis, or, rather, augmenting it with more axes: libertarian-authoritarian, centralist-decentralist, material-spiritual, and probably a few I've forgotten.

The bottom line is that just because you call yourself a libertarian doesn't mean you actually are one. But from the perspective of a staunch far-right authoritarian, just about anything looks like a libertarian, especially someone who is opposed to most of our recent wars.
 
He is also a far-right Republican.

Once again, libertarianism is the opposite of authoritarianism just as liberalism is the opposite of conservatism. This is from the 2008 election:

usprimaries_2008.png


But what makes it confusing is that Ron Paul styles himself as a libertarian as well, but he is actually a bit more authoritarian than libertarian while being extremely far-right. The reason he seems so libertarian is because most ultraconservatives are staunch authoritarians. Dommy is the same way.

And what makes it even more confusing is the Libertarian Party. They too are typically staunch conservatives and not nearly as libertarian as many centrists and liberals are.

Interesting, I landed near Nelson Mandela and the Dalai Lama:

Spoiler :
image.jpg


image.jpg
 
So Ron Paul was never a real libertarian? I mean he was only on the libertarian ticket for President once....how could he be a real libertarian? :confused:

And yet his goal is a level of governmental tyranny that utterly unacceptable to liberals. I mean, if the man ever stood up for liberty, then the American Libertarian party wouldn't be a disgusting joke to accept the guy at all.
 
Was he ever actually a member of the Libertarian Party? That seems more significant. Running on their ticket isn't necessarily anything more than opportunism.

Yeah, bad on me for assuming one actually had to be a Libertarian in order to run on their ticket. :sad:

@Form. So because Ron Paul is religous he is a authortarian tyrant? Wow. The more I read from you the more I get the idea that you think Libertarians are some kind of far-left wing anarchist antheists.
 
Yeah, bad on me for assuming one actually had to be a Libertarian in order to run on their ticket.

I'm fairly sure something similar happened in the 19th-Century when there was a candidate wanted by two sides in the election, so one party's rising star got himself nominated for the rival party, leaving his own side free to nominate the man in question.
 
Here in the USA? Got any names or links for that? I'd like to read it.

But one single instance over 100 years ago isnt exactly proof that RP wasnt a Libertarian while running on their ticket. In our society today, with modern media, i'd be kind of a tough sell.
 
@Form. So because Ron Paul is religous he is a authortarian tyrant? Wow. The more I read from you the more I get the idea that you think Libertarians are some kind of far-left wing anarchist antheists.
It doesn't surprise me in the least that you continue to concoct completely absurd opinions for me based on no actual facts. What would be far more surprising is if you finally decided to discuss what I write instead of what you fabricate.
 
It doesn't surprise me in the least that you continue to concoct completely absurd opinions for me based on no actual facts. What would be far more surprising is if you finally decided to discuss what I write instead of what you fabricate.

Well, you say that libertarians are rabid anti-authoritarians. So are anarchists. You just posted an article from an antheist website bashing Ron Paul for being religious (which makes him authortarian). You continually refer to liberal/libertarians/liberty in that being left means you believe in liberty as its actually part of the word (as if that really mattered..rofl).

Your continued postings along these themes make it fairly easy to draw such a conclusion and in fact is a discussion of what you write: YOU WROTE IT.
 
Well, you say that libertarians are rabid anti-authoritarians. So are anarchists. You just posted an article from an antheist website bashing Ron Paul for being religious (which makes him authortarian). You continually refer to liberal/libertarians/liberty in that being left means you believe in liberty as its actually part of the word (as if that really mattered..rofl).

Your continued postings along these themes make it fairly easy to draw such a conclusion and in fact is a discussion of what you write: YOU WROTE IT.
You again show you really don't have any clue what my opinions actually are, much less what I just wrote and quoted.

You also don't seem to understand at all the difference between libertarianism (small "L"), which is merely the opposite of authoritarianism, and the Libertarian Party (large "L") which is frequently anything but libertarian.

In a similar vein, Nazis continue to call themselves "national socialists" but they are anything but socialists. And the German Democratic Republic was anything but democratic.

Labels can be extremely misleading when taken at face value without any thought to what the various individuals or groups actually believe.
 
It is no more "socialist" than the military-industrial complex is today.
 
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