PH07: The School of Athens

[Codeman]

come on now. you love spending turns building an attack force of axes, marching in to attack the weak archers and *poof*, the turn before attacking it's longbows!

...at least it's fun when i do it to the ai!

 

[pholkhero]

@ codeman ~ that happens to me at any speed; all those AI discounts to upgrading really comes in handy...for them

okay, roll a new start, on Epic speed ~ i used the Play Now option w/a fractal map, and took a quick peek to make sure we weren't isolated (as it's wont to do at times) ~

Play 30 turns.

Roster:
Zophos >> UP NOW for 30
Pholkhero >> on deck for 25
Codeman >> 20 turns
Warpoo >> 15 turns
Lukep >> 15 turns

 

[Warpoo]

Ok. so things don't get messed up early on, ill explain what i do at the start. I'm a hall of famer so it works. J/k

Build whatever until the capital is a size two. Than start a worker. After prechop trees(if you don't want to pre just finish it and change production so the settler gets the hammers) or mine the closest hill.

Once the capital is a 3, start a settler. Chop him. After he finishes, start another chop that one too. After that one build two more workers. Than we will start on the army. In the mean time mine all the hills around.

The way i select city spots is: it has to have a food greater than 3, and two hills. (<3 hills)

Oh oh Research:
Mining -> bronze working -> wheel -> iron working

Understand?

I am all about going to war early.

If you have any other questions about my leet early war strategy let me know.

And just for the record i play with barbs off.

 

[lukep]

With Alex, i would build scout first.
Scouting is invaluable for pops, but also settling on the right place.

Imho one more than the starter is the bare minimum

 

[Codeman]

i usually play raging barbs and aggr AI.

i think we need to see the start and discuss a team strat using the leader traits and starting location. i know this would help me to understand the reasoning behind descisions, and potentially help me to use better logic throughout the game.

 

[Zophos]

okay, roll a new start, on Epic speed ~ i used the Play Now option w/a fractal map, and took a quick peek to make sure we weren't isolated (as it's wont to do at times) ~

Play 30 turns.

Actually, according to the Settings screen, we were playing on a Continents map the first time. But the initial post says Fractal, and I prefer Fractal anyway, so I'll do that.

And, after I remember that this is a Monarch game (and throw away my first start ), here's the setup:



And the start:



It's Junglicious(TM). But at least we should have plenty of food. Production, on the other hand, could be an issue. I'd recommend we save the trees, but make heavy use of the .

Left to my own devices, I would probably send the scout S-SE to see if there is anything in the fog south of us that would warrant moving elsewhere to settle (e.g. on top of the bananas). At the moment, this looks like settle-in-place and start with workboat - scout - warrior - workboat (or maybe settler, if we've found a good site). Good thing we have Fishing.

Second city needs to be a production center. I'll scout with this in mind.

Starting techs: None of the land-based resources in the BFC can be improved before Calendar, and we don't want to chop trees, so we can delay our first worker for a good little while. Similarly, I don't see the other early worker techs as frightfully important to start. I'd think BW early is a must (for the whip), and Mining will also help if there's a suitable site to the west to grab the gems. If Copper is not handy, pick up Archery for defense before anything else. That should take us through the first set.

Please discuss. I won't play turns tonight, unless we've heard from everyone at least once after this post.

Roster:
Zophos >> UP NOW for 30, and waiting for comments
Pholkhero >> on deck for 25
Codeman >> 20 turns
Warpoo >> 15 turns
Lukep >> 15 turns

 

[pholkhero]

I personally don't ever build scouts. I just started building them a bit after being influenced by Sistuili's ALC series, but don't know that i'm convinced that they pay off considering the crucial nature of the opening game. if they make some big discoveries (a tech or two or mucho dinero, then they sure are worth, but i've never found anything to convince me of it)

w/alex, we'll start w/a scout and no defense, but i'm okay with building another one.

since we're all discussin opening strats . . .

I usually will go warrior first, unless i've got one and/or there's nearby tiles that i can improve immediately (which is the majority of the time), I then go worker first.

I know many say to wait until pop 2, but I don't think you gain all that much from waiting as it usually takes, say, 18 turns to build a worker, rather than 23 (not counting the turns you took to grow from pop1 to pop2). HOwevr, if i went warrior first, i'll usually build another while I grow to Pop2, and THEN start a worker.

In either case, i usually will chop out another worker, while building more warriors and/or a barracks, and then chop/whip a settler at pop4. I'm a big fan of the [i.e., i always whip my monuments at Pop2 rather than chopping. You can have the city build some other bldg (e.g., barracks, library), and then swith to a monument hte turn before you go, and the crack that whip, give your back a slip /devo ]

tech-wise, though, i think perhaps mining > BW is the best move.

and all this assumes that Zophos checks back in, and knowing him as the lollygagger and daydreamer that he is (really, as all real estate moguls are), he probably won't edit:

 

[pholkhero]

so after eating crow, here are my thoughts.

I agree.



oh, you wanted more. Yes, go Workboat > Scout (sigh) > Workboat > Warrior in the early going, though you'll probably only be able to build the first 2.

MIning > BW is still the way to go, methinks. Slavery is our BFF (best friend forever if you don't speak teen-age girl)!

send the settler south, but i, too, thik settle in place is the way to go. Even farmed, those bananas will be worth 4f. It'd be nice if we found a nice cluster of hills near a couple sea resources after the last game, but i'm not holding my breath.

 

[lukep]

The initial site has exactly the same problem than the first one. many food, few production. For a capital, this is not good.

I would rather settle on the dye where the scout is. 4, perhaps 5 mines
fish/banana/diamond/dye. the ressource under city is one extra gold.
6 farms before calendar/CS, pretty perfect. One of the mines can be used from start, perhaps the one that seems to be in fog at south. However we will need iron fast. the city can feed 6 specialists or work all its mines.

workboat - scout - warrior - settler
mining - BW - myst

I would however first send the scout north to check what may be coast

The crab can we worked later either from the isle or a city on coast south, so we are not wasting it

 

[pholkhero]

that's actually not a bad idea. I would never have even thought to do something like that. the one problem, as you said, is that we would only have the Grass Hill pre-IW ~ not that good, but better than the other locale. however, we also would be surrounded by jungle on 2 sides, whereas the orignal site is immediately improvable.

I would still personally settle in place and try to found another city to our west for all those hills. In place, Athens would be a high-sci city with the necessary building whipped in, but since this IS all about trying something new, I wouldn't be opposed to moving the settler westward.

i also thikn that tile 1S 1SW of the dye is a plains forest only, no hill.

 

[Codeman]

to make use of the gems and mine the hills, won't we need iron working first? i didn't think you could build a mine in jungle area until after you have iron working.

ultimately, we are planning to use SE, right? that said, which site lends to the best specialist capitol? won't each city be specialized for a certain goal; ie science, gold, hammers...

 

[Warpoo]

i agree with going west too, we would only lose the clams and gain two hills. If you guys want a fast start stick to my build. The second the city hits a two make a worker, trust me. And Micromanage the city so it will grow to a 2 ASAP. Unless we start with fishing, i never look.. lol. i would whip/chop the workboat.

Just whip the turn its going to finish. Exploit or not its in the game.

 

[Codeman]

sorry for the double post but had additional thoughts...

to have immediate food and hammers wouldn't in place be best? we would get some hammers from forest and food, well that's obvious. if we settled on dye, we would only have one hammer from the hills (until iron) and no food; we really couldn't use them. forest would provide a hammer as well and 2 food, from the start.

both spots will support 8 farms, i think... but in place gets clams also. more food = more specialists, right?

those are my thoughts.

 

[Zophos]

Good debate so far. I'm especially glad that lukep is advocating the move west, since I had briefly considered and dismissed it, but I'm now looking at it more critically. And it looks like we're 2-2 on moving, making me the deciding vote. If this were a democracy. Which it isn't, of course.

Further thoughts, prompted by the posts above:

• Moving to the west costs us a full turn (moving through the woods, found on turn 2). Not deadly, but it is a turn advantage for all the AIs.
• Both sites are going to grow at the same rate at the very beginning. Neither one can generate more than 2 hammers/turn at size 1, or 3 hammers/turn at size 2 (before we build any mines). Actually, until we build a worker and then a mine, both sites have the same max hpt at a given size. So an initial workboat should take the same number of turns on each site (15 turns, IIRC).
• The food surplus at the eastern site is probably too much of a good thing. Whipping is all well and good, but we can only profitably whip every 15 turns, so growing back two pop in, say, 6 turns rather than 12 is not as big an advantage as it sounds. And you still have to put enough regular hammers into something to make it whippable.
• However, the eastern site will pump out workers/settlers like nobody's business. Even before Calendar. With two workboats, it can have +7 food at size 2, or +9 with a lighthouse. And we're likely going to need more than a few workers for jungle-clearing.
• Similarly, the eastern site will eventually support a LOT of specialists.
• At best, the eastern site will generate 5 hammers/turn (working all four forests), and can easily whip 2 (maybe 3) pop every 15 turns. The western site can generate a maximum 6 hammers/turn pre-IW (working three forests and a grass-hill-mine), and will grow back more slowly. Only once IW comes in does the western site get a lot more hammers (and it does get a LOT more hammers - there are four mineable grass-hills).
• Yes, I know that the western site can work the jungled hills even pre-IW. But they generate exactly 1 hammer, just like a citizen specialist, so no advantage there.
• Furthermore, if we go west, we need to build a Worker fairly soon,to get that hill mined. And then...what does he do with his time? He could chop the three forests, I suppose, but that cuts our production. And then he pretty much twiddles his thumbs until IW comes in, or we spend time researching worker techs to give him something to do (which delays IW). The eastern site doesn't require any worker techs, or a worker, for quite a while - we could conceivably go Mining->BW->(Archery?)->IW and ignore Agriculture, Wheel, etc. until later.

In short, I think I'm still in the settle-in-place camp. If the extra hammers from those hills would be available at the beginning, I'd move west and not even blink. Since they're mostly locked up until IW comes in, I think we actually get to USE them sooner if we settle in place and claim them with a second (or third) city. Plus, we'll have a larger population sooner in the east, which probably means more commerce, so we get IW a bit sooner, to boot.

But it's late, and I'm going to sleep on it. And it's not the obvious decision that I originally thought. I can still be convinced, so tell me why I'm wrong.

 

[lukep]

Really, 5 hammers/turn for a capital is not enough. Not at the beginning, but when you start infra. A potential of at least 10 is the absolute minimum for me.

The extra commerce of the city tile is huge for initial research too.

Alternatively you can send the scout south, as it seems there is less jungle there. Then settle somewhere there and use the west site as second city

Delaying the capital by 1 or 2 turns is not a problem, but not much more.

 

[Codeman]

i do see the better production from moving, but not until after iron working. can we afford to wait until then? wouldn't our second city be up by then anyway? it could be a true production city.

i do like having the extra commerce from settling on the dye, but see no other benefits until after iron has come in and we have cleared the jungle.

i just don't see it as the best choice. educate me.

 

[pholkhero]

If you guys want a fast start stick to my build.

the problem w/your build order is that it doesn't take into account protection from barbs, esp for the settlers you build. If i read it correctly, then it seems like the only chance we have to build warriors is before pop2 and after the first worker, then we're locked into worker > settler > settler > worker > worker. Don't get me wrong, i do very much the same thing in the opening game, but think we need some warriors pretty quickly, esp to do escort duty for our settlers. What's more, work boats are needed more than workers at this point since we can't chop our forests, no matter which site we take since we'll have no other production.

sorry for the double post but had additional thoughts...

don't worry about that ~ if you haven't noticed, i tend to spam up my threads as well, so post away!

Good debate so far.

[snip]

If the extra hammers from those hills would be available at the beginning, I'd move west and not even blink. Since they're mostly locked up until IW comes in, I think we actually get to USE them sooner if we settle in place and claim them with a second (or third) city.

i agree on the debate ~

those jungles, too, are my main sticking point. If they were bare or forested, i agree; it would be no contest about moving.

Why not move the scout S, SW to the plains forest there, while the settler moves 1 W. Next turn, move the scout SE, and then someway else further east/south.

This could all be moot if there's some hills to our south.

 

[lukep]

I agree on moving the settler and scout, searching for a better site. The dye one is the best we can see, but that could be for a later city. But settling in place is in any case a bad move i think.

Dont forget capital has a higher hapiness cap than later cities. That means we dont want to whip much in capital, to exploit the bigger size. So we really need some production.

If we are late to founding our capital, other civs will se us as weak, so we need army earlier, maaking archery worthwhile.

 

[pholkhero]

Dont forget capital has a higher hapiness cap than later cities. That means we dont want to whip much in capital, to exploit the bigger size.

To me, that means we whip it more, not less, at least in the early game. Once we've got a couple-three cities set up and the necessary buildings . . . er, built, then we let it grow.

However, i've moved into the Dye-site Camp, and so that makes the vote 3-2. In any case, though, i'll make the moves and post a new save for Zophos so taht we don't need to wait all day.

 

[pholkhero]

here's the new pic and the new save, w/the settler still able to move and found Athens.

I moved according to the plan, ending up going SE, SE on the scouts 2nd turn.

Notice the change in blue dots from the earlier screenie.

As I said, though, I've changed my mind and prefer the dye-site. SGs ARE about trying things differently, no?