Phaedo's 1st basic skills training game: patience required
- Thread starter Phaedo
- Start date
Phaedo
Emperor
Sorry
, I read Aabra's post and somehow it didn't register that his CP difficulties would interfere with the game. My mistake.
I can play some turns tonight, if I don't finish they will be done by the weekend.
, I read Aabra's post and somehow it didn't register that his CP difficulties would interfere with the game. My mistake.I can play some turns tonight, if I don't finish they will be done by the weekend.
Phaedo
Emperor
I tried to play my turns last night but couldn't so I'm in the middle now.
We are up currencey on everyone (except the Hittites) and down maps. We could trade currency around and basically bankrupt everyone and get maps. We are 20 turns away from Rep. I don't think I should trade but I have to fight off the temptation every turn. I'm taking a break to ask what the team thinks. The hittites have currency so the other AI will get it eventually. Should we beat them to the punch or wait? I can see the potential benefit of holding out but it feels like we should get our maps and coin (we are down to 11gold +1gpt at 70%Sci) and wait for the Rep monopoly.
Any thoughts?
We are up currencey on everyone (except the Hittites) and down maps. We could trade currency around and basically bankrupt everyone and get maps. We are 20 turns away from Rep. I don't think I should trade but I have to fight off the temptation every turn. I'm taking a break to ask what the team thinks. The hittites have currency so the other AI will get it eventually. Should we beat them to the punch or wait? I can see the potential benefit of holding out but it feels like we should get our maps and coin (we are down to 11gold +1gpt at 70%Sci) and wait for the Rep monopoly.
Any thoughts?
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
Salarakas said:
Unless I have misunderstood, Currency is known by the Hittites; they will undoubtedly trade it tothe Dutch if we don't, so I am in favour of the trade.
That's true but they got it on turn 5 of my turnset and it still isn't known by any other AI civ. We've put a lot of resources into getting the SoZ and I feel that by making it easier for the AI to get to better defenders (feudalism) we're "wasting" some of it. We need to take advantage of this killer unit while it's still got the upper hand.
On the other hand we're scientific and get a free tech once we research/trade for map making. If we didn't plan on starting some wars soon I'd make the trade but in this situation I'd say no.
On the other hand we're scientific and get a free tech once we research/trade for map making. If we didn't plan on starting some wars soon I'd make the trade but in this situation I'd say no.
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
How close are the Dutch to the MA?
Bear in mind that we are the only Scientific civ, so they would have to research Feudalism from scratch; and if we get it as our free tech, it would give the war effort a huge boost having MI's. I would still be inclined to make the trade.
Bear in mind that we are the only Scientific civ, so they would have to research Feudalism from scratch; and if we get it as our free tech, it would give the war effort a huge boost having MI's. I would still be inclined to make the trade.
Phaedo
Emperor
Well, unfortunately I didn't get a chance to red your posts before playing out my turnset. I ended up not making the trade. Afgter 5 turns, the situation is the same except that the Celts will give 2 gold less. It will be the next player's choice
Did a quick tour and I don't have any complaints. I do wonder about all the workers working independently however. Granted, long term, partial worker moves hurt but I thought stacking them was better. I see the argument against so I don't think it's worth it to change the tasks.
750 BC Turn 90
look around and hit return
730 BC Trurn 91
Move the caravel S, move the sword SW back to Oren
Scout moves N
I'd like to pump out a settler in St Pete's but we're not ready for it yet.
IBT Not much, some Hittite movement down south around the Dutch
710 BC Turn 92
We could pick up maps and some coin for currency but I think we can do better later. Actually, as I have been playing a Diety game on my own I'm a bit nervous about not trading.
Move the scout towards the Dutch Iron
The new catapult in Smolney moves south, the worker near Yars starts a road north, Mocsow's worker moves into the jungle to start a road.
Our new AC (nice work on getting SoZ it's so nice to have) moves to Yakutsk
IBT Celts are building ToA
697 BC Turn 93
St Pete's builds it's rax and switch to worker (in 2 with growth in 19 after some MMing. I thought it best for Smoley to use the wheat to grow)
Yekat's worker finishes his work and moves to the other BG
Don't know what to do about that new worker in the jungle. I want to clear it (10 turns as opposed to the 9 for a road) but figure the road will be more useful to the next player
IBT Utrech sends a settler pair out through our territory (they will pay later)
670 BC Turn 94
IT builds spear who moves to Yak and changes to sword
Cat from Smoley moves S
IBT Celts wanted to trade currency for maps. didn't take it but maybe I should next turn
The Arabs are building GL.
650 BC Turn 95
St Pete's builds a worker and switches to swords
After thinking about it for a long time (I still want to do it) I decide not to trade currency around
Decide to switch Smoley to a dinghy. All this fretting over the trade has made me really want to get to that other continent. We are all on the same track here and there have to be opportunities over there.
IBT Dutch want to talk about Currency but don't go for it
630 BC Turn 96
Move a worker next to Utrecht to build road
Move all military forces to Yakut
Switch IT to spear
IBT Disease at Yakut
610 BC Turn 97
Keep moving curragh west not not much else
IBT Hittites build Pyramods, Germans build Mausoleam
590 BC Turn 98
AC moves to Yakut
Keep moving our boat west
Sci slider down to 70%
IBT nada
570 BC Turn 99
Our jungle road is finished. start on the other banana and the hill towards the Dutch
Move our Yatuk stack to Vlad
IBT Ducth build GL in Amsterdam. Now isn't that convienant
550 BC Turn 100
Continue raoding and our irrigation line.
Turnset ends
I think we almost have the forces we need for war. The GL will be ours soon so I think it is vital that we start suicide runs east to find the other continent.
As the Dutch are our first victims and they have the GL, it might be a good idea to urn down the research to 0% once we have Rep. By that time we should be up to our unit support max
Nobody is on auto move but I did pile up some workers
Here are some screenies and the save:
The North
And the South
Did a quick tour and I don't have any complaints. I do wonder about all the workers working independently however. Granted, long term, partial worker moves hurt but I thought stacking them was better. I see the argument against so I don't think it's worth it to change the tasks.
750 BC Turn 90
look around and hit return
730 BC Trurn 91
Move the caravel S, move the sword SW back to Oren
Scout moves N
I'd like to pump out a settler in St Pete's but we're not ready for it yet.
IBT Not much, some Hittite movement down south around the Dutch
710 BC Turn 92
We could pick up maps and some coin for currency but I think we can do better later. Actually, as I have been playing a Diety game on my own I'm a bit nervous about not trading.
Move the scout towards the Dutch Iron
The new catapult in Smolney moves south, the worker near Yars starts a road north, Mocsow's worker moves into the jungle to start a road.
Our new AC (nice work on getting SoZ it's so nice to have) moves to Yakutsk
IBT Celts are building ToA
697 BC Turn 93
St Pete's builds it's rax and switch to worker (in 2 with growth in 19 after some MMing. I thought it best for Smoley to use the wheat to grow)
Yekat's worker finishes his work and moves to the other BG
Don't know what to do about that new worker in the jungle. I want to clear it (10 turns as opposed to the 9 for a road) but figure the road will be more useful to the next player
IBT Utrech sends a settler pair out through our territory (they will pay later)
670 BC Turn 94
IT builds spear who moves to Yak and changes to sword
Cat from Smoley moves S
IBT Celts wanted to trade currency for maps. didn't take it but maybe I should next turn
The Arabs are building GL.
650 BC Turn 95
St Pete's builds a worker and switches to swords
After thinking about it for a long time (I still want to do it) I decide not to trade currency around
Decide to switch Smoley to a dinghy. All this fretting over the trade has made me really want to get to that other continent. We are all on the same track here and there have to be opportunities over there.
IBT Dutch want to talk about Currency but don't go for it
630 BC Turn 96
Move a worker next to Utrecht to build road
Move all military forces to Yakut
Switch IT to spear
IBT Disease at Yakut
610 BC Turn 97
Keep moving curragh west not not much else
IBT Hittites build Pyramods, Germans build Mausoleam
590 BC Turn 98
AC moves to Yakut
Keep moving our boat west
Sci slider down to 70%
IBT nada
570 BC Turn 99
Our jungle road is finished. start on the other banana and the hill towards the Dutch
Move our Yatuk stack to Vlad
IBT Ducth build GL in Amsterdam. Now isn't that convienant
550 BC Turn 100
Continue raoding and our irrigation line.
Turnset ends
I think we almost have the forces we need for war. The GL will be ours soon so I think it is vital that we start suicide runs east to find the other continent.
As the Dutch are our first victims and they have the GL, it might be a good idea to urn down the research to 0% once we have Rep. By that time we should be up to our unit support max
Nobody is on auto move but I did pile up some workers
Here are some screenies and the save:
The North
And the South
Great news about the Dutch getting the great library AND the Hittites getting the pyramids. Pyramids is a fantastic wonder and will help us big time. The great library gives us some interesting tactical planning possibilities but more on that later 
Any special reason why you decided to build a worker and not a settler in St Petes like we discussed? If/when Utrecht autorazes we want to replace it ASAP.
A small note: creating the second jungle road would have been better 1E of Yakutsk as that would have acted as a link between Iron Town and Vladivostok as well.
I'm not sure about the curragh build in Smolensk. It still has the 2 barbarian galleys right next to it who will most likely sink the curragh in just a couple of turns unless we get lucky.
Well, I'm all for minimizing the number of lost worker turns. If you first build a road with one worker and then move more workers to build a mine or irrigation faster then that's ok. That's true especially for hills and mountains where it can take ages for one worker to do the mining. The same tactic is also used for clearing out jungle and marshland.
I'll make some more comments later today but who's up next? Buce?
Any special reason why you decided to build a worker and not a settler in St Petes like we discussed? If/when Utrecht autorazes we want to replace it ASAP.
A small note: creating the second jungle road would have been better 1E of Yakutsk as that would have acted as a link between Iron Town and Vladivostok as well.
I'm not sure about the curragh build in Smolensk. It still has the 2 barbarian galleys right next to it who will most likely sink the curragh in just a couple of turns unless we get lucky.
Well, I'm all for minimizing the number of lost worker turns. If you first build a road with one worker and then move more workers to build a mine or irrigation faster then that's ok. That's true especially for hills and mountains where it can take ages for one worker to do the mining. The same tactic is also used for clearing out jungle and marshland.
I'll make some more comments later today but who's up next? Buce?
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
Well, it does look like you're down to the bare bones again, so I'll take it if you need me to. I won't do anything until we've had a chance to discuss it.
Phaedo
Emperor
Salarakas said:
We can build a settler pretty quickly (5 turns). I should have started a settler before pumping out a sword. I guess I forgot. Sorry.
As war wasn't going to happen my turn set, I though the worker would do some good rather than a settler just waiting for war. It would have made sense If I had switched to a settler after the worker but as I forgot I guess the settler won't be ready to replace the auto raze for 7 turns. That really sucks. I do apologize.
Also a heads up: As I was looking at the save I noticed that the citizens of Yaros and Smoley need to be re-assigned.
Wow, I made a buch of mistakes on that one
Wow, I made a buch of mistakes on that one
Nah. The Smolensk curragh build can be easily changed if we want to and we always need more workers so perhaps it was better this way. Building the road on the "wrong" jungle square might have been a mistake but it doesn't matter much either.
There's one thing I'm a bit puzzled about when looking at the second screenshot though. You have workers on the banana square 1SE of Vladivostok. Clearing jungles and marshes are on the bottom of the "important things to do" list as it takes such a long time (was it 24 turns?). We don't need a road there either before attacking the Hittites and even then building a road on the hill square might be better.
Generally speaking in the early game you should only use workers for hills, mountains, jungle and marshland tiles if there's a very good reason for it. A good reason might be to connect a resource or to build an important road. 24 turns just to clear the jungle (+1 food) is the equivalent of 4 grassland mines (+4 shields), 6 plains irrigation (+6 food) or a whole lot of roads. It's just not cost efficient.
Phaedo
Emperor
The workers on the bananas are roading. There are three of them so I think it will be done in 2 more turns. I guess I was thinking about connecting to the Hittites although doing that before the Dutch wasn't really part of the plan.
Spilt milk though.
Good Luck Buce!
Spilt milk though.
Good Luck Buce!
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
I should be able to play this tonight; does anyone wish to add anything?
@ Sal: Since we cannot agree on whether or not to trade Currency, I think it best to maintain the status quo, so unless you have a change of mind, I'll refrain from doing so.
@ Sal: Since we cannot agree on whether or not to trade Currency, I think it best to maintain the status quo, so unless you have a change of mind, I'll refrain from doing so.
To be honest I'm not really sure what would be better. On one hand we have 33% chance of getting feudalism for free and that's tempting but on the other hand we don't need medieval infantry to hurt the Dutch. What we need is troops and swordsmen are cheaper. I think it's Phaedo's call really but he doesn't seem to be sure either.
- Start the war when you feel we're ready for it. Utrecht is the first target of course so you might want to move the attacking stack to Yakutsk next turn. Try to minimize the losses (i.e. attack rather with a veteran AC than the first regular one etc)
- If you manage to get us republic during your turns don't revolt yet
- If you get a leader my advice would be to use it for an AC army
- Start the war when you feel we're ready for it. Utrecht is the first target of course so you might want to move the attacking stack to Yakutsk next turn. Try to minimize the losses (i.e. attack rather with a veteran AC than the first regular one etc)
- If you manage to get us republic during your turns don't revolt yet
- If you get a leader my advice would be to use it for an AC army
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
Looking at the big picture, I suggest that we leave the Dutch as a 1CC; if we research the bottom of the Tree, we can take maximum advantage of the GL when it suits us.
Phaedo
Emperor
Sounds good, just make sure to take Amsterdam for the GLBucephalus said:
As for maps, we can afford it, can't trade it yet and don't really need it. Those were my reasons not to trade it. I guess just keep seeing what you can get for it and if an opportunity pops up, take it (or if it looks like you will lose it to their research anyway)
Good Luck Buce
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
Phaedo said:Sounds good, just make sure to take Amsterdam for the GL
As for maps, we can afford it, can't trade it yet and don't really need it. Those were my reasons not to trade it. I guess just keep seeing what you can get for it and if an opportunity pops up, take it (or if it looks like you will lose it to their research anyway)
Good Luck Buce
I think you've misunderstood; I'm proposing to let them keep the GL until it suits us better to take it.
Hope everyone had a good weekend. Bucephalus, thanks for being willing to fill in. I'd like to hear your reasoning on leaving the Dutch as a 1CC, though. I don't see any advantage to not capturing the GL right away.
I agree with Salarakas on whether or not to trade. ACs can rule of the Ancient Age, but at 3/2/2, I don't want to try taking them up against 1/4/1 Swiss Mercs if we don't have to. I'd much rather use them to sqaush spearmen. While I'm not convinced that the Dutch have the resources or gold to come up with very many Mercs, even if they could get them, I also don't remember them having enough gold to make the risk worth the trade.
Where did the Dutch settler pair get off to? A couple of slave workers would make a nice addition.
How many ACs are we up to?
And for what it's worth, here's my 2¢ on workers and worker turns. It's something I'm still sorting out, and clarifications or advice would be appreciated, BUT . . . I hate waiting for ages to get something done. So I usually move workers in gangs of some number which divides evenly into the number of worker turns required. If I get to a project which leaves an odd man out, he moves on to the next project. I also try to keep slaves separate from domestic workers, because they work slower. I realize that I could integrate them, but it's when I've had odd numbers of slaves working with my domestic gangs that I've realized that I've had horrendous numbers of wasted worker turns. (A problem that I'm trying to remedy).
I agree with Salarakas on whether or not to trade. ACs can rule of the Ancient Age, but at 3/2/2, I don't want to try taking them up against 1/4/1 Swiss Mercs if we don't have to. I'd much rather use them to sqaush spearmen. While I'm not convinced that the Dutch have the resources or gold to come up with very many Mercs, even if they could get them, I also don't remember them having enough gold to make the risk worth the trade.
Where did the Dutch settler pair get off to? A couple of slave workers would make a nice addition.
How many ACs are we up to?
And for what it's worth, here's my 2¢ on workers and worker turns. It's something I'm still sorting out, and clarifications or advice would be appreciated, BUT . . . I hate waiting for ages to get something done. So I usually move workers in gangs of some number which divides evenly into the number of worker turns required. If I get to a project which leaves an odd man out, he moves on to the next project. I also try to keep slaves separate from domestic workers, because they work slower. I realize that I could integrate them, but it's when I've had odd numbers of slaves working with my domestic gangs that I've realized that I've had horrendous numbers of wasted worker turns. (A problem that I'm trying to remedy).
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