Poll for 2020 election

[Timsup2nothin]

Here's the thing...

I like Bernie Sanders. Always have. The comparison with my country's own idol of the left - Jeremy Corbyn - is instructive. Corbyn is an incompetent buffoon. Sanders, by contrast, is a serious thinker on policy and a brilliant player of the political game. At another time, he might have made a great president. As it is, he's probably not going to get the chance.

But, like Corbyn, what he has managed to do is to energise people on the left - especially younger people - to get involved in politics. Where the prospects are much better for Sanders' legacy, however, is that his party can still win the election, and get a government into power that knows that progressive and socialist ideas have a significant level of popular support. If they continue to play it smart, Bernie and the people who support him can still wield significant influence here.

But not if Trump wins. If that happens, you've got another four years of the USA being made safe for nativist and reactionary populism. More racism. More misogyny. More overt criminality in office. More gerrymandering and vote suppression. The continual undermining of the rule of law will move on apace, with the rights of women, minorities, immigrants, and anyone who gets in Trump's way crushed mercilessly underfoot.

Anyone who thinks four years of that is worth it just so you don't have to hold your nose while voting (as I did for Corbyn) can, quite frankly, do one.

If it weren't a total sidetrack I would like to debate "Bernie Sanders is a brilliant player of the political game." Maybe a different thread at a different time when he is not such a hot button?

For the record I support almost every issue he espouses, but have been castigated consistently because as a student of political strategy with a strong inclination towards the Democratic party I have criticized him pretty heavily.

 

[Winston Hughes]

You seem very much in the "if you're not with us, you're against us," line of thinking. Just like a certain Senator from the 1950's named Joe McCarthy.

That's the best you've got?

The presidential election is a zero-sum game. There is plenty of room for nuance in the lead-up, but when it comes to the crunch you're either helping to get rid of Trump or you're not. There is literally no middle ground.

 

[cardgame]

We're still in the lead-up.

 

[Winston Hughes]

If it weren't a total sidetrack I would like to debate "Bernie Sanders is a brilliant player of the political game." Maybe a different thread at a different time when he is not such a hot button?

Getting this far in a second consecutive primary season is a remarkable achievement, given where he's coming from.

Again, the contrast with Jeremy 'Leader By Accident' Corbyn is instructive.

We're still in the lead-up.

But we're talking about the crunch.

 

[Kyriakos]

That's the best you've got?

The presidential election is a zero-sum game. There is plenty of room for nuance in the lead-up, but when it comes to the crunch you're either helping to get rid of Trump or you're not. There is literally no middle ground.

If Biden gets the nomination, and loses to Trump, he clearly didn't help get rid of Trump.
Maybe vote for Blair, given he escaped prison ^_^

 

[amadeus]

But at the same time, Biden should be held to account! It's tricky because I don't know how to circle the square of getting people pissed off at Biden for legit reasons to vote for him to stop Trump from being worse.

Not just in politics, but in all things, I found a little bit of peace in detaching myself from petty arguments that would change little in my material terms of life. Internet arguments about ideological purity are just one of them.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Getting this far in a second consecutive primary season is a remarkable achievement, given where he's coming from.

Again, the contrast with Jeremy 'Leader By Accident' Corbyn is instructive.

Losing is still losing. In a presidential primary losing isn't a bad thing in itself, because many candidates run for president without ever intending to win, and if they accomplish their objectives they are successful. I would say that Sanders accomplished no objective that he held at any point in the 2016 campaign, and has thus far not accomplished anything in this one where I believe that his only objective was to actually win.

 

[Winston Hughes]

If Biden gets the nomination, and loses to Trump, he clearly didn't help get rid of Trump.

That's why people need to work together to help beat Trump.

Is this not obvious?

Maybe vote for Blair, given he escaped prison ^_^

What does that slimy, messianic warmonger have to do with anything?

Losing is still losing. In a presidential primary losing isn't a bad thing in itself, because many candidates run for president without ever intending to win, and if they accomplish their objectives they are successful. I would say that Sanders accomplished no objective that he held at any point in the 2016 campaign, and has thus far not accomplished anything in this one where I believe that his only objective was to actually win.

I think he's done very well to create a space in front-line politics for more progressive and socialistic positions than have previously seemed viable. That is no small achievement in itself, but I think he can go even better than that if the dems win back power this year (i.e. the senate as well as the white house) and help to nudge actual legislation in his preferred direction.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

What does that slimy, messianic warmonger have to do with anything?

Offers an opportunity for sidetracking the thread. Politics 101, know the objectives.

 

[amadeus]

What does that slimy, messianic warmonger have to do with anything?

He aged a lot since I last saw him. More than other politicians from
10-15 years ago. But I find it funny how he, once the standard-bearer of the Labour Party, has been pushed aside and his reputation thrown in the garbage heap.

He’s the English G.W. Bush! Ouch for Tony Blair.

 

[Kyriakos]

That's why people need to work together to help beat Trump.

Is this not obvious?



What does that slimy, messianic warmonger have to do with anything?

Blair is "centrist", like Biden and the rest of the merry group. In the Us branch they are funded by pharma companies and wall-street. Bernie's campaign was 100% against those interests, so saying any voter of his should logically shrug and do a u-turn... is likely not going to cut it. I personally can see how (some, not all, and imo not most either) a Bernie voter will just abstain.

There is still, apparently, a small chance that Biden will be potus, but Trump is the favorite. Maybe if the DNC didn't keep promoting centrist shady figures who go on losing (Kerry, Hillary, Biden), Trump wouldn't get a second term either. Or even a first term

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I love it when a predictable spammer spams so predictably.

 

[Patine]

Fortunately, I never strive for "higher ground." I'm more of a player for "common ground."

You often seem a bit obtuse for "common ground."

 

[Winston Hughes]

Blair is "centrist", like Biden and the rest of the merry group. In the Us branch they are funded by pharma companies and wall-street. Bernie's campaign was 100% against those interests, so saying any voter of his should logically shrug and do a u-turn... is likely not going to cut it. I personally can see how (some, not all, and imo not most either) a Bernie voter will just abstain.

No, this is still just weird.

Biden ain't Blair, just like Sanders ain't Castro.

Judge a candidate on their own merits, not by trying to paint them with someone else's evils.

 

[Kyriakos]

No, this is still just weird.

Biden ain't Blair, just like Sanders ain't Castro.

Judge a candidate on their own merits, not by trying to paint them with someone else's evils.

It's not like it is a tautology to say 2,4,6,8 etc have a common trait. A false tautology is to say 2=4.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

You often seem a bit obtuse for "common ground."

Well, when I am establishing common ground with the obtuse...

Notice that I do try harder to get along with you than most other posters.

No, this is still just weird.

Biden ain't Blair, just like Sanders ain't Castro.

Judge a candidate on their own merits, not by trying to paint them with someone else's evils.

Prediction: it ain't gonna get anything but more weird and more annoying.

 

[Tristan_C]

But not if Trump wins. If that happens, you've got another four years of the USA being made safe for nativist and reactionary populism. More racism. More misogyny. More overt criminality in office. More gerrymandering and vote suppression. The continual undermining of the rule of law will move on apace, with the rights of women, minorities, immigrants, and anyone who gets in Trump's way crushed mercilessly underfoot.

There will still be plenty of space in which to nurture a comfy persecution complex. The entertainment industry will keep conditioning the population to accept left wing narratives. The sociology departments will still teach critical theory, as they've always mysteriously done since the early stages of the cold war. And the news media will keep being a crutch for the du jour progressive agenda.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

And the news media will keep being a crutch for the du jour progressive agenda.

Ah yes fair and balanced.

 

[Winston Hughes]

He aged a lot since I last saw him. More than other politicians from
10-15 years ago. But I find it funny how he, once the standard-bearer of the Labour Party, has been pushed aside and his reputation thrown in the garbage heap.

He’s the English G.W. Bush! Ouch for Tony Blair.

The truly sad thing is that thanks to his appalling foreign policy decisions and general duplicity, Blair has managed to convince today's Labour Party to throw out the baby with the bathwater. His government did a remarkable amount of good - as a front-line public servant I know this more than most - and there are important lessons to be learned from what they did right, as well as what they did wrong. If it's ever going to happen, though, it won't be for a good while yet.

It's not like it is a tautology to say 2,4,6,8 etc have a common trait. A false tautology is to say 2=4.

The comparison is irrelevant to the point at hand. You could have referenced almost any centrist in history, but happened to pick the Saint of Sleaze.

Suggest you leave it here before I start to wonder if there's more to it than just a mistaken assumption that I supported Blair.

 

[amadeus]

I’m not going to intervene in any discussions here and I don’t intend on accomplishing anything otherwise. My interest is entirely in getting votes.

Hey, I should run for office.