Poor, poor rapists... WTH!?

[caketastydelish]

I asked you a question; are you a male right's activist or not?

Ok, here is your answer, even though it's none of your business:

I am simultaneously a feminist and men's rights activist. That's because as far as I'm concerned, they both fight for the same thing (equality).

This case (what the thread is about) is a women's issue, because most people getting raped are women. They are our sisters, our daughters, our wives and our mothers. When women lose, everyone loses, because women are a part of society just as much as men are.

Yes there are also men getting raped, but since the majority are women, it's a womens' issue.
----

On the other hand, suicide is a men's issue because the majority of people committing suicide are men. Yes, I'm asserting it's bad for women when men commit suicide. When I was in high school a girl I knew had a father that committed suicide. This devastated her and her family. What if a man is married to a woman and has children and he commits suicide? Not only does he lose, but his wife and children lose as well. So you see, what is in the best interest for women and men go hand in hand because we are all human in life together.

This does not mean women don't commit suicide, but only since most suicides are male, it is a predominantly mens issue.

--------

Does that answer your condescending question?

 

[warpus]

Let me preface this by saying that I obviously think the girl deserves the most sympathy. She is the victim here.

HOWEVA, I honestly DO feel some measure of sympathy for the football players. Here is why:

I'm pretty familiar with Steubenville. I grew up maybe an hour away, and I've covered their high school football team before (they're pretty famous around Ohio). The town is hopelessly backwards, and has 100% completely fostered a culture where young football players feel they are completely above the law.

The most powerful man in town, the football coach, is in cahoots with the sheriff. The administration and local law enforcement have covered up rampant academic fraud, drinking and drug trafficking for years. You have kids who are taught from fairly early on that women are prizes that they are entitled to thanks to their athletic exploits, not actual human beings. When you add all of that up, plus alcohol, plus being dumb teenagers, you get tragedy.

I'm not saying these kids should not be punished. They have committed a horrible act and they ought to be punished. I do think it is sad that they've basically thrown their lives away on a terrible mistake, and most importantly, that they've grown up in a culture and community that has enabled this behavior before.

The kids should be punished, but they aren't the only guilty party here.

That's an interesting insight into the whole thing, but the thing is that CNN and other media outlets were playing the "Sympathy for the rapists" card without any of this information. That's just inexcusable.

Is this basically a small town problem that exists in other smaller communities around the U.S.?

Do you think the convictions will force the community to change?

 

[Farm Boy]

On the other hand, they're 16. People do some really stupid things at 16 that are in no way reflective of the person they might be at 46. I think sex-offender status might be something subject to renewal or, maybe better, review.

The better they get at analyzing brain development the more they come down on the side that teenagers are significantly less able to feel empathy then, for example, a 6 year old. It comes back, slowly, but it's something that should be kept in mind.

Yes, men can be raped. But if you want to imply that the rape of men is as much of a social problem as the rape of women then you're out of your mind.

Given the ongoing and upward revisions in the estimated numbers of men who are raped by men I think this is going to be a dated view in not too many years. Both are a problem, but one is still underreported, stigmatized, and swept under the rug more often than the other. Unless of course we buy some idiotic premise that rape in prisons is less of an issue because inmates are less human.

What exactly is there to empathize with? Empathy for the sake of empathy?

Yes? Empathy for the sake of empathy seems about as good a sentiment as I can think of. Love is needed most when it's hardest to do. Especially for the worst among us. Isn't that how we get better at learning and preventing new people from becoming the worst among us?

Do you remember when you were 16? Was raping girls something you thought about often?

What is the purpose of this question? I haven't been able to figure it out. It reads at first glace to me as an attempt to shame. Nobody ever seems to own up to it so maybe I am/was terribly malformed - but yes, I've had my share of monstrous thoughts bounce around upstairs in this meat cage. Does that I am any less furious when I read about a story like this? No it does not. If anything I'm probably angrier because I've spent years trying to own up to the darkest parts of my psyche and turn them into part of a whole that does at least some good. We've started to get one thing right when talking about sexual violence - we fess up to the fact that the victims are people we know, our mothers/sisters/daughters/brothers. We need to fess up more often that the perpetrators are people we know too. They are also us. Pretending that we can neatly categorize men who do monstrous things as monsters is understandable, but it's not helpful. To be monstrous is to be all too human. Society fails the victims of sexual violence hard. It also fails those who wind up choosing to become criminals hard too. Finding the best line and mixture between punishment/incapacitation/rehabilitation/prevention/all the myriad things we need to do is hard but it almost certainly isn't "draw and quarter."

Side issue, what is up with the drubbing of the town as being "blue collar?" That seems an oddly pejorative phrase as it's being used when that sentiment should really be applied to something else. With that particular phrase being tossed about this conversation sound an awful lot like my grandparent's generation talking about the ills and problems of Colored Town.

 

[Traitorfish]

I am simultaneously a feminist and men's rights activist. That's because as far as I'm concerned, they both fight for the same thing (equality).

You realise that just because two things have equivalent names, that doesn't mean that they're actually equivalent, right? Like how "black pride" means growing an afro and listening to soul music, and "white pride" means murdering immigrants. Equivalent in name, rather less so in practice.


I feel like an inordinate amount of this thread is being spent explaining pretty basic things to you.

 

[caketastydelish]

Nah. As far as I'm concerned, both 'black pride' and 'white pride' are racist.

edit: I don't have time for your PC definition of what words mean. You've heard my case. Take it or leave it.

 

[downtown]

seriously? it's illegal to consume the drug? as in the consumer can be prosecuted for consuming?

Yes. There are a few small exceptions but this would not be one of them.

That's an interesting insight into the whole thing, but the thing is that CNN and other media outlets were playing the "Sympathy for the rapists" card without any of this information. That's just inexcusable.

Yeah, I certainly agree with that. TV reporting usually isn't the place for nuance, and to play up the "look these all-american boys are soooo sad" is bullcrap.

Is this basically a small town problem that exists in other smaller communities around the U.S.?

Some degree of a "rape culture" is a problem in a lot of western countries. I think this particular kind of cover-up is probably a lot more likely in a small, isolated town. This entire event could have probably also happened somewhere in Alabama or Texas or in the rural midwest, or a few college towns as well.

Do you think the convictions will force the community to change?

I hope so. I know they're certainly not happy about the deluge of negative press.

 

[Mise]

Farm Boy brings up a noteworthy point about "monsterising" rapists. These rapists were fairly ordinary teenage boys. Assuming that only horrible, despicable people are capable of rape (or child molesting or murder or anything else) is not only false, it's dangerous. This type of thinking is what allows "upstanding" members of community, like priests and businessmen and high school footballers to rape and abuse with impunity. It allows people to think, "no, I know that guy, and he's not a monster. He's just like me!" Then the community rallies around the upstanding member, because people believe that only monsters can be rapists, and since these were regular people and not monsters, they can't be rapists. They look at all the good that they've done and think, "pff, she's a drunk slut, she's not worth listening to. That footballer/priest/businessman/father of two who coaches the football team is a smashing guy, he can't possibly be a rapist".

That's the real problem with that sort of thinking.

 

[Traitorfish]

Nah. As far as I'm concerned, both 'black pride' and 'white pride' are racist.

Well, at least we know how seriously to take your pronouncements in future.

 

[downtown]

Farm Boy brings up a noteworthy point about "monsterising" rapists. These rapists were fairly ordinary teenage boys. Assuming that only horrible, despicable people are capable of rape (or child molesting or murder or anything else) is not only false, it's dangerous. This type of thinking is what allows "upstanding" members of community, like priests and businessmen and high school footballers to rape and abuse with impunity. It allows people to think, "no, I know that guy, and he's not a monster. He's just like me!" Then the community rallies around the upstanding member, because people believe that only monsters can be rapists, and since these were regular people and not monsters, they can't be rapists. They look at all the good that they've done and think, "pff, she's a drunk slut, she's not worth listening to. That footballer/priest/businessman/father of two who coaches the football team is a smashing guy, he can't possibly be a rapist".

That's the real problem with that sort of thinking.

Yes, this is a really good point.

 

[Dachs]

In real life people generally don't die for dramatic purposes (unlike Game of Thrones). Sadly.

Alexander. Antigonos. Seleukos. C. Iulius Caesar. Constantius III. Classical history is full of 'em.

 

[Traitorfish]

People in those days just had a better sense of timing.

 

[Dachs]

Franz Ferdinand, too.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Farm Boy brings up a noteworthy point about "monsterising" rapists. These rapists were fairly ordinary teenage boys. Assuming that only horrible, despicable people are capable of rape (or child molesting or murder or anything else) is not only false, it's dangerous. This type of thinking is what allows "upstanding" members of community, like priests and businessmen and high school footballers to rape and abuse with impunity. It allows people to think, "no, I know that guy, and he's not a monster. He's just like me!" Then the community rallies around the upstanding member, because people believe that only monsters can be rapists, and since these were regular people and not monsters, they can't be rapists. They look at all the good that they've done and think, "pff, she's a drunk slut, she's not worth listening to. That footballer/priest/businessman/father of two who coaches the football team is a smashing guy, he can't possibly be a rapist".

That's the real problem with that sort of thinking.

First of all, I hope it is clear that no penetration of a vagina by a penis occurred here. People keep using the word "rape" to discuss what occurred here when it is actually the crime of sexual assault by the definition used in most places.

Second, while I agree that "monsterizing" such criminal acts does make it far harder to properly prosecute these incidents in many cases, and I am by no means in favor of making the names of those convicted of some sexual crimes public, far more certainly needs to be done to stop these acts from occurring. It has reached epidemic proportions in the US:

Rape more common than smoking in the US

The United States is experiencing an epidemic of sexual violence. New findings from the National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey (NISVS), a study launched by the Center for Disease Control and Prevention in 2010, report that nearly 1 in 5 women are estimated to have been the victims of rape, defined as unwanted completed or attempted sexual penetration, including victims who did not have the capacity to give consent (owing to intoxication, for example). In almost all cases, the perpetrator was someone the victim knew (91.9%) and more than half of the time was their own partner. Young adulthood was the period of highest risk for first sexual victimization. For 80% of female victims, first rape occurred before age 25; for 42%, before age 18.

 

[Evie]

Farm Boy brings up a noteworthy point about "monsterising" rapists. These rapists were fairly ordinary teenage boys. Assuming that only horrible, despicable people are capable of rape (or child molesting or murder or anything else) is not only false, it's dangerous. This type of thinking is what allows "upstanding" members of community, like priests and businessmen and high school footballers to rape and abuse with impunity. It allows people to think, "no, I know that guy, and he's not a monster. He's just like me!" Then the community rallies around the upstanding member, because people believe that only monsters can be rapists, and since these were regular people and not monsters, they can't be rapists. They look at all the good that they've done and think, "pff, she's a drunk slut, she's not worth listening to. That footballer/priest/businessman/father of two who coaches the football team is a smashing guy, he can't possibly be a rapist".

That's the real problem with that sort of thinking.

Yes. Dehumanizing people who do horrible things is one of the best way to enable other people to do these again. Slavers were human being. Nazis were human beings. So are rapists.

 

[NovaKart]

Ok, here is your answer, even though it's none of your business:

I am simultaneously a feminist and men's rights activist. That's because as far as I'm concerned, they both fight for the same thing (equality).

This case (what the thread is about) is a women's issue, because most people getting raped are women. They are our sisters, our daughters, our wives and our mothers. When women lose, everyone loses, because women are a part of society just as much as men are.

Yes there are also men getting raped, but since the majority are women, it's a womens' issue.
----

On the other hand, suicide is a men's issue because the majority of people committing suicide are men. Yes, I'm asserting it's bad for women when men commit suicide. When I was in high school a girl I knew had a father that committed suicide. This devastated her and her family. What if a man is married to a woman and has children and he commits suicide? Not only does he lose, but his wife and children lose as well. So you see, what is in the best interest for women and men go hand in hand because we are all human in life together.

This does not mean women don't commit suicide, but only since most suicides are male, it is a predominantly mens issue.

--------

Does that answer your condescending question?

I like this idea. I think people too often ignore issues that concern men but unfortunately the majority of people concerned with men's rights, at least those who post on the internet, think they have to do this at the expense of women's rights. I think self proclaimed feminists are actually more likely to take the side of discrimination when it affects men in most cases and that things have actually improved for men after the women's rights movement in the 60s and 70s.

You realise that just because two things have equivalent names, that doesn't mean that they're actually equivalent, right? Like how "black pride" means growing an afro and listening to soul music, and "white pride" means murdering immigrants. Equivalent in name, rather less so in practice.


I feel like an inordinate amount of this thread is being spent explaining pretty basic things to you.

Normally I like your posts but I think you're being unnecessarily rude here.

 

[Zack]

How is suicide an issue about men's rights?

Both are clearly blue collar jobs more than white collar jobs, and neither require a "great" deal of skill to adequately perform the job. There are thousands of sheriffs who are mediocre at best, and there are tens of thousands of high school coaches who are.

Furthermore, I have yet to see a high school coach who was above average when it came to teaching. There are probably a few, but there are certainly not very many of them based on my own personal experiences. This is particularly true if they majored in some absurd major like phys ed instead of a legitimate academic subject. I certainly didn't ever have one teaching an honors class that I attended, or any class for that matter when there were no honors classes. They seemed to teach the classes where there were a lot of jocks and other students who had difficulties passing for some odd reason.

Source, please.

It sounds like you are actually the one "looking down" on others and being "snobbish" by claiming that their future is essentially determined by who their parents were, instead of how hard they work to achieve success.

Dear God, you are pretentious. Everyone who didn't receive the proper education to write textwalls on the internet is a moron and it's totally their fault, I get it.

 

[Crezth]

I like this idea. I think people too often ignore issues that concern men...

Where does this happen, exactly? As a white male living in mittelamerika, I've never felt particularly marginalized. That's anecdotal, yes, but "too often" I think suggests that there is a comparably bulky subset of issues about which nothing is done - but of all the things I can compare white male problems to, I think the problems faced by women and minorities of all kind are more numerous and certainly more ignored.

 

[caketastydelish]

First of all, 'mens issue' does not just mean white males. Black males are just as male as white males.

Second, suicide effects both white males and black males. As you can see, both white males and black males commit suicide more than either white females or black females. So no it is not a 'white male' issue, so much as a 'male' issue.

http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/suicide/statistics/rates02.html

By all means, check the graph. You will find that males commit suicide more than females by every demographic; not just among whites.

 

[Traitorfish]

Normally I like your posts but I think you're being unnecessarily rude here.

The post addresses somebody who thinks "We're a Winner" is much of a muchness with the Horst-Wessel-Lied. What do you expect?

 

[sophie]

Wrong. I didn't do that.

Yes you did.


ALSO THIS

And this

and this

and this

I could go on. But is it really necessary?