Pope Francis On Gays: Who Am I To Judge Them?

[civ_king]

Pope Francis has had a busy week at World Youth Day in Rio as he visited his slums and prisons, blessed the Olympic flag and brought three million people to Copacabana Beach for a final Mass on Sunday morning.

Now he has made another headline, this time when the pontiff said, "Who am I to judge a gay person?"

While taking questions from reporters on the plane back to Rome, Francis spoke about gays and the reported "gay lobby." According to the Wall Street Journal, the Pope's comments about homosexuality came in the context of a question about gay priests.

The pontiff broached the delicate question of how he would respond to learning that a cleric in his ranks was gay, though not sexually active. For decades, the Vatican has regarded homosexuality as a "disorder," and Pope Francis' predecessor Pope Benedict XVI formally barred men with what the Vatican deemed "deep-seated" homosexuality from entering the priesthood.
"Who am I to judge a gay person of goodwill who seeks the Lord?" the pontiff said, speaking in Italian. "You can't marginalize these people."​

John Allen of the National Catholic Reporter reported on the meeting as well and said the Pope also addressed the question of the Vatican's reported "gay lobby".

He hasn’t run into significant resistance to reform inside the Vatican, and joked that if there really is a “gay lobby” he hasn’t yet seen it stamped on anyone’s ID cards.​

Father James Martin, S.J. who is an admirer of Francis, said that the pontiff's comment about gay people is consistent with the rest of his papacy.

"One of Francis's hallmarks is an emphasis on mercy, which you see in that response. That mercy, of course, comes from Jesus. And we can never have too much of it."​

The pope did not offer much hope for those advocating for women Catholic priests, according to Allen at NCR, saying: Pope John Paul II “definitively … closed the door' to women priests.

More from the Associated Press:

ABOARD THE PAPAL AIRCRAFT — Pope Francis reached out to gays on Monday, saying he wouldn't judge priests for their sexual orientation in a remarkably open and wide-ranging news conference as he returned from his first foreign trip.
"If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?" Francis asked.

His predecessor, Pope Benedict XVI, signed a document in 2005 that said men with deep-rooted homosexual tendencies should not be priests. Francis was much more conciliatory, saying gay clergymen should be forgiven and their sins forgotten.

Francis' remarks came Monday during a plane journey back to the Vatican from his first foreign trip in Brazil.

He was funny and candid during a news conference that lasted almost an hour and a half. He didn't dodge a single question, even thanking the journalist who raised allegations reported by an Italian newsmagazine that one of his trusted monsignors was involved in a scandalous gay tryst.

Francis said he investigated and found nothing to back up the allegations.

Francis was asked about Italian media reports suggesting that a group within the church tried to blackmail fellow church officials with evidence of their homosexual activities. Italian media reported this year that the allegations contributed to Benedict's decision to resign

While stressing Catholic social teaching that calls for homosexuals to be treated with dignity and not marginalized, Francis said it was something else entirely to conspire to use private information for blackmail or to exert pressure.

Francis was responding to reports that a trusted aide was involved in an alleged gay tryst a decade ago. He said he investigated the allegations according to canon law and found nothing to back them up. But he took journalists to task for reporting on the matter, saying the allegations concerned matters of sin, not crimes like sexually abusing children.

And when someone sins and confesses, he said, God not only forgives but forgets.

"We don't have the right to not forget," he said.​

source


Is anyone surprised?

 

[Samson]

I am a little supprised, as the catholic church does not normally shy away from judging people. He is certainly ambiguous enough for it to be interpreted in many ways.

 

[shadowplay]

It seems to me all he's doing is reiterating what their stance has been for a while now.

 

[Defiant47]

The more I hear about this man, the more I realize how truly close he adheres to God's teachings.

"Judge not, lest ye be judged"

Only God can judge on the gays, and anyone that tries to supersede God is entirely arrogant and presumptuous.

 

[civ_king]

I am a little supprised, as the catholic church does not normally shy away from judging people. He is certainly ambiguous enough for it to be interpreted in many ways.

This current pope does seem much better at stating things in a way that people like.

 

[~Corsair#01~]

The thing that stood out to me most about his tour of Latin America so far was his opposition to legalising drugs. Any of them.

So from my point of view its just more of the same.

Maybe if he has anything positive to say about contraception he might actually have a positive influence on humanity, or at least serve as a dampener on the RCC's huge negative influence.

But I'm not going to hold my breath- he's probably just a time-server like every other Pope.

 

[Defiant47]

You fail to realize how slowly a traditionalist organization such as the Catholic church can actually enact change. More of the same with some slight improvements is not actually merely "more of the same". There's a degree of perspective required.

 

[civ_king]

The thing that stood out to me most about his tour of Latin America so far was his opposition to legalising drugs. Any of them.

So from my point of view its just more of the same.

Maybe if he has anything positive to say about contraception he might actually have a positive influence on humanity, or at least serve as a dampener on the RCC's huge negative influence.

But I'm not going to hold my breath- he's probably just a time-server like every other Pope.

Like how it is one of the world' educators and health care providers?

 

[warpus]

Isn't this basically the standard Jesuit response to the question of homosexuality? If so, not so surprising? Good to see coming from the papal office though.

 

[Gucumatz]

Like how it is one of the world' educators and health care providers?

Don't bother with him, some people are set in their ways and refuse to change
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As for the Pope's remarks, the Catholic church even in its lessened state in the modern age is still one of the most powerful and massive organizations in the world. Things like reform on gay equality take time and a changing in tone is a massive thing. Pope Francis has millions of interests pulling him in countless directions, but only he can counter-push them into different views slowly and gradually. Francis is old - and I think he knows that. What he is doing is setting up the next Pope as well for continued gradual change.

As for things like "legalizing drugs" - I am not sure how that comes even close to a true beneficial thing for a nation unlike legalizing of gay marriage and more equality for women. Countless holes can be picking into the arguments of any "pro-drug" [And sometimes big-drug] advocate

Once the Vatican bank is changed into a charitable only organization we will see where Francis will focus its attention too as well

 

[Kyriakos]

Don't really see this as anything positive. Just the Pope/catholic church trying to seem closer to what supposedly is PC (which itself is a made-up concept).

Someone should remind the pope that people don't really get better because they told some old man in a robe their "sins". They can only get better if they actually form some more viable mentality towards the world and themselves.

 

[Borachio]

Ah yes, but isn't confession only valid if you truly repent? Which means you do indeed have to, in your words, move to "some more viable mentality".

 

[BvBPL]

It seems to me all he's doing is reiterating what their stance has been for a while now.

Yes, that is true. What he announced about homosexuals is not ground breaking. However, his statements do amount to being more loving than those of his processor.

Furthermore, let's not forget that he also mentioned that women should have a larger role to play in the Church. That's a change. Hopefully the congruence of a more loving attitude towards homosexuals with the statements about the role of women indicate that some change towards homosexuals is in the offing. Fingers crossed.

Also, to be fair, the stated position of the Holy See as to homosexuals is a "love the sinner, hate the sin" type deal. Which is generally more progressive than many other Christian, Jewish, and Muslim denominations. That's not to say that the stated position is adhered to in every See or even in the Holy See itself.

You fail to realize how slowly a traditionalist organization such as the Catholic church can actually enact change. More of the same with some slight improvements is not actually merely "more of the same". There's a degree of perspective required.

Yes. Thanks.

Someone should remind the pope that people don't really get better because they told some old man in a robe their "sins". They can only get better if they actually form some more viable mentality towards the world and themselves.

Yes, but you neglect to mention that everyone is inherently a sinner in the Catholic faith. Sin is the base line starting point of human existence. So it isn't remarkable or extraordinary that some is told they are a sin. Sin, in Catholicism, is one of the things that makes people human. Consequently, telling people that they are sinners is a part of Catholic ministry.

 

[Kyriakos]

^Christian man's burden.

 

[warpus]

Don't really see this as anything positive. Just the Pope/catholic church trying to seem closer to what supposedly is PC (which itself is a made-up concept).

PC or not is beside the point. What the pope is saying is a good step towards a more equal society. So there's that... but if you believe what he actually says is another story...

 

[Lillefix]

Words are cheap.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Don't bother with him, some people are set in their ways and refuse to change

As you continue to incessantly discuss the individual instead of the topic?

As for things like "legalizing drugs" - I am not sure how that comes even close to a true beneficial thing for a nation unlike legalizing of gay marriage and more equality for women. Countless holes can be picking into the arguments of any "pro-drug" [And sometimes big-drug] advocate

Yet you really can't provide any in regard to an essentially harmless recreational drug. If you are going to take this stance, at least be consistent by opposing alcohol consumption which is vastly worse than smoking marijuana.

 

[Borachio]

As for things like "legalizing drugs" - I am not sure how that comes even close to a true beneficial thing for a nation unlike legalizing of gay marriage and more equality for women. Countless holes can be picking into the arguments of any "pro-drug" [And sometimes big-drug] advocate

I'd be very wary of advocating legalizing all drugs, myself.

But nevertheless there is one very powerful argument in favour of it: it would totally undermine the billions that the narco-barons make from the fact that at present it is illegal.

 

[Gucumatz]

As you continue to incessantly discuss the individual instead of the topic?

Yet you really can't provide any in regard to an essentially harmless recreational drug. If you are going to take this stance, at least be consistent by opposing alcohol consumption which is vastly worse than smoking marijuana.

Gosh dang it Forma, why can't you and mobby just restart your old feud and leave the rest of OT out of it.
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Edit: And for the record Forma - in any discussion I have had with you I have always come against Big-Alcohol just the same as I go against Big-Weed

 

[Formaldehyde]

As you continue to discuss the individual instead of the topic?

And I see you provided no basis for your previous assertion despite claiming there are "countless holes" in legalizing marijuana possession again, at least among adults.