Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by RomanKing, Jun 9, 2017.
"I can't. But I don't like fascists, and I don't like this guy, so close enough."
It is very refreshing to see a young, vocal, and inclusive social liberal affirm both free speech and the importance of engaging in dialogue with people with whom she might disagree.
"Doesn't matter if they're left, they're alt-right". Okay. Well... I suppose speaking strictly etymologically, there is some appeal to classifying "left" and "alt-right" as synonyms.
Phew, dodged that bullet by being female.
What you're saying is silly though, "being hostile to feminism and intersectionality" does in no way equate to you being alt-right, or even being a fascist, if we follow the discussion back to its origin. All you're doing is watering down words even more, until people don't take them seriously anymore. It helps nobody to put people into categories that they're not in.
So poking fun and making comedy skits is now "hostility"? Seems like you need to take your own advice and get out of your comfort zone to understand life perspectives.
EDIT: Also, your generalizations of white males makes you both racist and sexist.
The poking fun part is clearly a manifestation of male fragility - an unwillingness g to engage and address their own sexism. Mocking genuine issues is a mask for insecurities. I can point out my own brother who dealt with this despite being a Bernie Bro.
Your second accusation is ridiculous for three reasons: a) I'm a white male myself, b) racism in that sense refers to institutional racism which is by definition against those without privilege, and is not the same as prejudice, c) I am referring to the gamer demographic and culture in particular that is responsible for sites like Reddit, a certain chan, and gamersgate. Misogyny is rampant there. You can't accuse someone of being sexist by pointing out a sexist culture. That would be like accusing a POC of being racist because they points out examples of institutional racism, or a woman pointing out the rampant sexism of fraternities.
None of this is even remotely true. Plus, you haven't even watched his content so why should your "analysis" here be taken with any degree of seriousness?
So? Just because you are the same race or gender of the people you hate doesn't absolve you from accusations of racism or sexism. I remember seeing a black KKK member on one of those daytime talk shows once. He would still be racist against black people despite being black himself.
Except the "gamer demographic" is far from being misogynistic. That's just you buying into the stereotypes and not doing your research. Those communities you refer to are the extreme minority of gamers. So again, you are just engaging in and perpetuating inaccurate stereotypes and generalizations based on your own prejudice against young white males.
Sure, except that's not what you did. You generalized an entire demographic. That's what makes you a racist and sexist. You are also judging an individual (Chris Ray Gun) based on what you are reading from other people rather than watching his content yourself and forming your own opinion.
I don't know about this. Chris Ray Gun is pretty selective about the things he makes fun of, and usually has a good rational behind his arguments. He also doesn't have any problems making fun of himself and his own shortcomings, that doesn't sound like a fragile person at all to me.
That's not an excuse at all.
No it doesn't, that's idiotic. Institutional racism makes only sense when, you guessed it (probably not), talking about institutions. When we're talking about individuals, in this case, your racist generalizations, we stick to the good old definition, and what you've said most certainly fits that definition.
"For sites like Reddit"? What? With the exception of TheDonald, the large subreddits are all HEAVILY left-wing, have you ever been there? And "gamersgate"? Can't even get the name right?
Your lack of knowledge is astonishing for somebody who speaks with such certainty.
Well yeah, if that POC then starts talking about how white bois are the devil, and how every single one of them, including all of those who hold no institutional power, and all of those who he has never met, is a terrible person, then that POC is a racist POS.
I mean, do you even realize how much you're generalizing a group of people that obviously you know nothing about but the things that you've read from others? You're doing exactly what you accuse these people of, with no rational thought at all, it's just you demonizing a group of people on the basis that they share some characteristics with people who hold some harmful views. Not even Chris Ray Gun, the person who you claim is a fascist, does that, he constantly points out that the people he features in his videos are radical extremists, not exemplary for the group of feminism as a whole. If that's a fascist, then what are you?
So if someone doesn't share your opinion, it's because he can't get out of his comfort zone and hasn't grown up ?
Funny, it seems your claims of opening the mind to other point of view only apply to others, and only if they end up sharing your views.
Mmm. Realizes that the language I used in that last post wasn't persuasive towards y'all POV and I'm not in the mood to engage in a topic that will induce the backfire effect and strengthen your opinions. I would've been turned off too a decade ago. I'll try to think of a better way of rephrasing.
Poking fun is a healthy defense mechanism to deal with the stress of changes upon a person. Gaming is changing. It is rapidly shifting from a hobby that is male-dominated and focused upon majority experience to a much more inclusive hobby. That’s a big change for people whose identities have developed around the hobby; those guys need some time to adjust to it. That’s a stressor. Poking fun is a great way to deal with exactly that sort of stressor. As is critically examining the change itself. Those are productive means by which people adapt to changes; their presence indicates that gamers are adapting to the changing nature of the hobby.
It means that these are normal people who are dealing with change. It does not mean they are fascists.
"I grok it is a bravery . . . and a sharing… against pain and sorrow and defeat."
Your argument was basically that Chris Ray Gun is a fascist because he doesn't like mainstream feminism, I don't see what's there to "rephrase". What you need to do in my opinion is not to rephrase your argument, what you need to do is rethink your position, because I think you've shifted focus from what probably once was a reasonable progressive position to a position that, in my opinion, is simply bigoted and indefensible.
That's not true though, core-gaming is still male dominated, and the percentage increase of women in core gaming is something like ~1-4%. The only major shift of demographic is age, which itself is not a factor that has changed because suddenly all kinds of old people have picked up gaming, but because the people who have already been gamers in their youth, are now becoming older. The backlash is not against a demographic shift, and it's not against women in gaming (Why would the new tomb raider titles for example be so highly rated for example if that were the case? Why would people love The Last of Us? etc.), the backlash is against people who try to force politics into gaming in a way that is not immersive in any way.
Or really into any medium, as one can see in the different reactions to Ghostbusters which was built on the idea of taking a movie loved by many (including many women) and turning it into a mediocre token-"Go women!"-movie and got shred to pieces, vs. Wonder Woman, a good movie that has a female lead - a movie that doesn't artificially avoid politics, but also doesn't make them the center of attention when they don't need to be - a woman-led movie that preaches girl-power and that had a very good reception, even in the male-dominated audience.
It's a backlash of people who just want to enjoy their hobbies in peace, and not be educated on whatever cult decides that they need to force their message into any hobby they can get their hands on.
I think it's worth pointing out that this is irrelevant to the point you're making, in the context that you're trying to invoke it. It seems like you're saying that you can't possibly have racially prejudiced attitudes towards white males because you are white male, which is untrue. People are perfectly capable of harboring racial or gender-based prejudice or bias against their own race or gender. Frankly its pretty common. A simple, less inflammatory example is that as parents (particularly Dads), we tend to expect our sons to be "tougher" and we treat them more harshly/less sympathetically than our daughters, particularly when it comes to instances of physical pain. We do this because we harbor the gender-based bias that men are (or are supposed to be) tougher, physically and emotionally than women.
Exactly what you describe does, in fact, regularly occur in the discussions on this forum, ie., the old "Your false accusation of racial prejudice is, itself racial prejudice" argument. But I think those instances are a slightly separate issue than what you are raising. You are raising the "I'm white so I can't be prejudiced against whites" argument, which is more akin to the "See a black person agrees with my position, so it can't possible be a racially prejudiced position" argument, which is also very commonly made on these threads.
Correct... but I will add that I often find it very hard to get folks (not necessarily you, but frankly anyone) to join me in pointing this out when the "See a black person agrees with my position, so it can't possible be a racially prejudiced position" argument is being made... which I am hoping you might see is essentially the same flawed argument.
Every backlash is about people who want to enjoy the status quo in peace. That's what a backlash is.
Those include games for smart phones. That's where the supposed "growth" of female gamers comes from. The smart phone market was always female-dominated, it has just grown in popularity.
Doesn't have anything to do with core gaming.
My wife plays waaaaaaay more videogames than I do if you include Smartphones. But I am 100% certain that she wouldn't describe herself as a "gamer" while I certainly would describe myself as one.
Kinda ironic that this is the gender-version of "I have a black friend...", isn't it?
In the early ‘90s, plenty of people dismissed White Wolf’s Storyteller offering as not being true to gaming’s traditions. The Storyteller games brought in a ton of new people who were previously not interested in the hobby, including both a whole lot of women and a whole lot of people we now call LGBTQ. Overnight, gaming got super diverse as a whole lot people who wouldn’t be served by traditional gaming got excited about Storyteller games. Storyteller games went on to define contemporary portrayals of supernatural elements in popular culture.
Still, according to the grognards of the time, Storyteller games weren’t real gaming.
Pew, being primarily a US research institute, didn’t do any research into how many Scotsmen think they are true gamers.
I'll just assume you got lost somewhere along the way, because this twisting of the narrative nonsense is not something I normally expect of you, so let me get you back on track:
You claimed gamergate was a revolt against a market that is becoming more diverse, and was opening up to women. Gamergate had nothing to do with the mobile market which, again, has always been dominated by women, and has always catered to women's preferences. It was a backlash against journalists who colluded to push narratives into core gaming websites (at first at least). That's why I'm telling you that the statistics you brought up don't show what you actually think they show.
Whether people who play video games on their phones are "gamers" or not I couldn't care less about, anybody who thinks of themselves as a gamer is welcome to call themselves that in my opinion. But people who play mobile games are still irrelevant to the topic we were discussing, the demographic shift in core gaming that gamergate supposedly reacted to according to you. The one that simply doesn't exist.
Separate names with a comma.