Preaching Christianity

[_random_]

It's not putting the quote you had in this quote block, but I disagree with that. I think that you have to be a Christian. I don't know much about Catholicism, but is that an official view of the Catholic Church?

Yes. The words of the Ecumenical Councils are taken as authoritative by Catholic and Orthodox Christians, and the Catholic Church considers Vatican II to be an Ecumenical Council. However, such teaching isn't really unique to the Catholic Church. We can see similar thoughts in the writings of St. Paul.

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves.
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Alot of those books that you're saying reference Old Testament figures were written to Jews who were very familiar with those people. (Especially Hebrews, written especially to the Hebrews aka Jews). I don't know that it ever says that you ahve to believe in those people to be a Christian. I think that if you are a Christian, you will come to believe in them (through the Holy Spirit, but that's a whole different debate) if you didn't when you became a Christian.



That's assuming that all the Old Testament is a falsehood. If you're saying that the entire Old Testament isn't true, then you're a little off. Much of it is well documented, especially the history of Isreal. I understand why people don't always believe the Creation story, and thus Adam, but what's wrong with Moses, Noah, the Plauges on Egypt, or anyother of the prophets or kings of Isreal?

In regards to Biblical literalism, I don't think it really matters a ton. Ironically, one of the most abused passages by literalists seems to indicate this nicely.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

We can see here that the ultimate purpose of scripture is not necessarily to provide a literal account, but to provide us with a model of moral behavior. This is not to suggest that we discard the religion of Christianity for the sake of a lifestyle, as doctrine is also very important, and certain passages must be interpreted literally for its sake. The Resurrection accounts (and the Gospels in general, really) spring to mind immediately, but are certainly not the only ones. Now, good ol' science makes it clear to us that the world is round, grasshoppers have six legs, and the earth is around 4.5 Billion years old. If the authors of the epistles believed otherwise, why should it matter so long as the moral and spiritual truths remain intact? I have yet to see a single passage indicating that a literal interpretation of the Biblical creation or flood accounts is necessary for the faith, but would revise my position if I did. In the meantime, we must recognize that a literal scientific account of the beginnings would have been of little use to bronze-age nomads, especially when they were bombarded with wicked mythologies of other cultures. A mythology of their own that taught them about the true God would have been far more helpful.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Is it possible to state an atheist(etc.) message without basing it on a falsehood?
What you believe is false doesn't mean it's false to all others. It's called "faith" to us.

Funny you should say that.

Here we go: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=371182

I think that it's all important. Christianity is very complex and has many aspects that people devote their entire lives to studying and still don't understand. That's certianally something that we're not going to understand on an internet forum, but I'll give it a shot at addressing what you're saying. The ressurection is important, and fulfilling the prophecies is a way to prove that he really is the Son of God. If he wasn't the Son of God, then his death on the Cross wouldn't have meant anything and he would just be another victim of mob mentality and the Roman Justice System. He was the Son of God, so his death meant that everyone can be forgiven of thier sins. The ressurection also proves that he is the Son of God. See 1 Corinthians 3-19 (sorry for the little letters in the middle of the text)

Ah, I think I see where the disconnect sets in. I did not mean to promote Christianity in it's entirety. I meant to preach those parts which made sense to me. Which is the message: "Be more empathic" and funny enough in the OP I added "for God's sake". But I meant that more as a saying then actually being literal. I truly meant "for humanity's sake". Mind, I'm not arguing that this whole God/Son of God relationship isn't important to Christianity. I don't think it's important to preaching the message: "Do unto others ...". I did not delve into the forgiving of the sins, because that would mean that instead of preaching Christianity I'd have to criticize it. And that wasn't my intention.

I now realize, with quite a bit of amazement I might add, that the message in itself is deemed not worthy enough for Christians. It doesn't seem to hold up on it's own. The message needs to be backed by divinity. And here's where the disconnect happens. Such a simple, obvious powerful message needs divine acknowledgment to be complete.

I don't consider you a numbnut or a lowlife. You seem to have a good grasp on the core values. I just don't fully agree with everything. But, using your arguement, if someone that wasn't a Christian tried to preach Christianity, they could make it unappealing. If I worked for Ford as a car salesman, I could go to a GM lot and make a free GM car sound like a bad idea.

I'm not Christian but why would I want to do that? I made it as appealing as possible by excluding what I thought was excess baggage to promoting the Golden Rule. Strangely enough I am being told that as far as Christianity is concerned you should be nice to other people but more importantly you accept JC died on a cross for our sins, went to hell, came to live after 3 days is the Son of God and loves you. You should love each other, but more importantly, you should love God.

This. Truly. Astounds. Me. Boggles my mind. Also reminds me of David Bowie's Loving the Alien.

I appreciate the chance to discuss this with someone else. This is a good thread.

I'm surprised this thread did spark discussion at all

But Christ being the Son of God is critical. See what I said above. There are places in the Bible (see the end of Revelations) where it warns against only giving part of the message of the Gospel. I agree that getting into deep theological stuff isn't the best with people that have never heard of Jesus, but leaving out things like God, or Christ's ressurection, or umm... God out of the Gospel really isn't the Gospel. It's also manipulative to try to trick people into thinking that Christianity is atheistic. It's kinda a "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth thing" , but you also have to include the way, the truth, and the life into that.

Trick people into believing Christianity is atheistic. Heh. Maybe if I meet people who just immigrated from Mars, I'd have a shot at that.

But, as I understand this correct, it's wrong to promote Christianity without including the whole God business. It's wrong to tell people Jesus wanted to spread the message people should have some empathy for each other, without saying: but first and foremost, you must have empathy towards God. And all Christians here seem to agree to that, so I have a last comment to make.

I tried to find common ground. I tried to distill the part of Christianity that everyone could safely agree on. Instead of that, people seem to be more obsessed about the distinguishing features of this belief. They seem more obsessed by quoting parts of the Bible to me. It really does seem you guys think it's more important to Love the Alien. I really am disappointed.

And I'm afraid that this means I can no longer continue to preach Christianity. A religion that places anything above brotherly love towards your fellow human beings is not worthy of my support. A religion that has followers who focus on the differences rather than trying to support me in finding common ground with the kind of fervour displayed in this thread tell me that I am indeed not cut out to preach Christianity.

I apologize if I have misrepresented your believes as something that might unite people part of all kinds of different life philosophies. So sorry.

David, take it away:

Watching them come and go
The Templars and the Saracens
They're travelling the holy land
Opening telegrams

Torture comes and torture goes
Knights who'd give you anything
They bear the cross of Coeur de Leon
Salvation for the mirror blind

But if you pray
all your sins are hooked upon the sky
Pray and the heathen lie will disappear
Prayers they hide
the saddest view
Believing the strangest things,
loving the alien

And your prayers they break the sky in two
Believing the strangest things, loving the alien

You pray til the break of dawn
Believing the strangest things, loving the alien

And you'll believe you're loving the alien
Believing the strangest things, loving the alien

Thinking of a different time
Palestine a modern problem
Bounty and your wealth in land
Terror in a best laid plan

Watching them come and go
Tomorrows and the yesterdays
Christians and the unbelievers
Hanging by the cross and nail
​

 

[Lone Wolf]

You should love each other, but more importantly, you should love God.

Well, duh (Abraham and Isaac FTW lol). Though I guess some people could say that without loving God, you're unable to truly love your fellow being.

And of course, with their believes in mind, you and some Christians might have some subtle differences as to what exactly constitutes "love towards fellow humans" and what actions do or don't demonstrate the love.

 

[classical_hero]

Nope.

Just watch me.
He may have also taught that, but hey, no one is perfect. Instead of focusing on all kinds of side issues I decided to aim for the center and get right down to the hearth of the matter. I don't have to share his opinion of favourite meals with him either. Christ also taunted and molested an innocent fig-tree. But don't we all have our off-days?
If the key to Christianity is proving people God exists, they should have called is Godianity or Yahwehism. Then I get to preach Christianity as Jesus intended. By the way if you combine those two accusations you get: your mom killed babies and she didn't exist. Now, how can anyone respond to that? Best leave the whole God business out of preaching Christianity. It really is not important.
Ok, lets decide on priorities right here right now.

What is most desirable result when preaching Christianity? What should be it's moral aim.
A. People will be convinced there is a God who has all kinds of weird characteristics attributed to her.
or
B. People will be nicer to each other.

edit: To use Bono as inspiration:

This is the religion false prophets stole from Jesus Christ, tonight we're stealing it back

The whole reason Jesus came to earth is not to set a good example, but to die for our sins.
John 3:3-21 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Clearly he knew he was going to die and even the one sent before him knew that.
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

This is a reference to the Passover Lamb that was first instituted when God brought judgement on the Land of Egypt for their sins. Once there was blood to protect the Israelites, the judgement of God pass over them and onto those who were condemned. There is a punishment for sins and that is exactly why Jesus came to earth, to die for our sins so that we can live with God for all eternity.

I'm sorry, I didn't intend it to be rhetoric, though I might have been playing with the "no true Scotsman" fallacy. Thanks for expressing your offense, I appreciate the feedback.

Ziggy brought up the 'true Christian teachings' and said that it was "the Golden Rule". I insisted that it's also "love God". Is this the end of the Christian teaching, is this sufficient? Or is this only 'part' of the 'true Christian message' (especially as conceived of by Christ)?

We've got Christians who believe that the 'true Christian messages' requires Adam's existence (these Christians include Paul and the author of Jude). We've got Christians who believe that the existence of Noah is required as part of the 'true Christian message' (including the authors of the two books of Peter and the book of Hebrews).

We have very many Christians who think that the 'laws of Moses' are an essential component of the 'true Christian message', but this message is incoherent if Moses didn't exist. I'd be so bold as to include Jesus in this list, though I understand that it's tough to call Jesus a 'Christian'.

Christ's two rules ("love God and others") survive the loss of these figures; handily so. It's quite possible to "love God" if you find out that the Plagues weren't real. Can the rest of Christianity survive the loss? Or does preaching Christianity require teaching people falsehoods, first?

If Christianity doesn't need to be taught on falsehoods, why are so many children under the impression that Noah really existed? Do you know of any churches whose children don't? And how can a Christian be "loving God" if they're blithely ignoring such libel, anyway?

Well each of these people are very important. Jesus does mention both of these so he saw them as real people. As the writer of the first five books Moses was vitally important and Jesus says this about the writings of Moses.
John 5:45-47 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
Noah is important because it shows what faithfulness will do when God brings his judgement. If it were not for Noah's faithfulness, we would not be here.

Jesus Christ! Will you please read the Bible there is a whole lot more to it than John 3:16, you can't just believe in Jesus you need to do good works too.

It is definitely important

I think the lesson is that God can smite whatever, whenever for whatever reason, be afraid, be very afraid

Well Good works will not save you, on the blood of Jesus can save. If you look at the Jewish Priesthood you will see that whenever someone offered up a sacrifice is was not because of their good works that it was acceptable, but because the sacrifice itself was acceptable to God. It had nothing to do with the person who gave the sacrifice.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Now you've quoted a lot of scripture at me and haven't had to form a single thought of your own, you just droned out irrelevant information to me, totally unrelated to the question. And still haven't answered the question to decide on priorities.

Lets try to convince people to be nicer to each other.

No, no! It's much more important to convince them Jesus died for our sins.

(I already withdrew my support from the kind of religion you guys are promoting. It's Nucking Futs)

 

[Lone Wolf]

Lets try to convince people to be nicer to each other.

No, no! It's much more important to convince them Jesus died for our sins.

Jeez, read a Jack Chick tract, he explains all that nicely .

I guess the possible answer to that could be that without love of God and belief in him, most niceness you display for other people will be misguided and even harmful.

 

[kosiosko 1]

Now you've quoted a lot of scripture at me and haven't had to form a single thought of your own, you just droned out irrelevant information to me, totally unrelated to the question. And still haven't answered the question to decide on priorities.

Lets try to convince people to be nicer to each other.

No, no! It's much more important to convince them Jesus died for our sins.

(I already withdrew my support from the kind of religion you guys are promoting. It's Nucking Futs)

Keep up your good work trying to convince people to be nicer to each other...
its a good place to start ... even the Buddha would agree

 

[classical_hero]

Now you've quoted a lot of scripture at me and haven't had to form a single thought of your own, you just droned out irrelevant information to me, totally unrelated to the question. And still haven't answered the question to decide on priorities.

Lets try to convince people to be nicer to each other.

No, no! It's much more important to convince them Jesus died for our sins.

(I already withdrew my support from the kind of religion you guys are promoting. It's Nucking Futs)

Then your "religion" is not a true one, since There is punishment for sins. God will Judge you for your sins, whether they be at Calvary, when Jesus took the sins of the world upon him, or at the Great White Throne judgement. Jesus spoke more about heel than he ever did about heaven. It is not about being nice, since it is about your soul that is the important thing, in fact Jesus did say that many will say they did great things for him, but he will not know them and they will be cursed because they rejected his message. The truth hurts, but a lie hurts even more and what you are trying to spread is a lie, since Jesus did not come here to just give a simple message of just being "nice" to each other, in fact when the time came for it, Jesus was very caustic on people for their hypocrisy and would in now short words tell them that what they are doing s wrong and to repent of their sins. Jesus would have no time for your message and he will reject it.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Then your "religion" is not a true one, since There is punishment for sins.

Am I speaking Swahili over here? My "religion"? What on Earth are you talking about? I haven't got a religion my dear chap.

And I do realize there is punishment for sin. I did commit the sin of trying to find common ground for the Christian and the Atheist, and boy am I already paying for it. I'm being beaten here with sticks made out of frozen idiocy for my ignorance.

God will Judge you for your sins, whether they be at Calvary, when Jesus took the sins of the world upon him, or at the Great White Throne judgement. Jesus spoke more about heel than he ever did about heaven. It is not about being nice, since it is about your soul that is the important thing, in fact Jesus did say that many will say they did great things for him, but he will not know them and they will be cursed because they rejected his message.

Well, you heard it here first folks.

Love thy neighbour, The Golden Rule. All totally not important. Dismiss those teachings people. That's not what it's all about. That's not his message. Reject loving your neighbour, reject treating others as you would want to be treated. Because thinking these are important messages will Curse you! Indeed! The threat of Hell! The guilt of sin! That is the true message of Christianity. It's not about love. It's about cowering before a God. Who will skullfrack your guiltridden sorry ass into the depth of hell.

The truth hurts, but a lie hurts even more and what you are trying to spread is a lie

Oh great. Christianity according to CH just became a little more awful.

How is it a lie my sweet prince? How do you interpret Love Thy Neighbour and Do Unto Others? Oh wait, you already explained you interpret those: BE AFRAID! BE VERY AFRAID!

since Jesus did not come here to just give a simple message of just being "nice" to each other

No, being nice to each other has nothing to do with Christianity. It is as you call it a lie. I mistakenly thought love for one another was a big part of it. Don't worry, I've been set straight throughout this thread. In fact I will tell people of this newfound wisdom.

Ok, the new Gospel according to Classical H: Don't be nice to each other! Just screw those other people. Be nice to God! Just God!

in fact when the time came for it, Jesus was very caustic on people for their hypocrisy and would in now short words tell them that what they are doing s wrong and to repent of their sins.

Oh pray tell me what my hypocrisy is my dear newfound guru of teaching Christianity.

The practice of professing standards, beliefs, etc., contrary to one's real character or actual behaviour, esp the pretence of virtue and piety

Show me how I would rather not see people being nice to each other. Because that is your task if you're accusing me of hypocrisy.

Jesus would have no time for your message and he will reject it.

Which is a neat trick since I quoted him to get the message I was spreading.

Are there more than one Jesus? That would explain a lot.


DISCLAIMER: I'm only addressing CH's ideas about Christianity here, not CH himself, not Christianity in general. I haven't and wouldn't for instance react like this in reply to MobBoss, DroopyTofu or MagisterCultuum, who I think agreed that (apart from importance, but we settled that) what I was promoting was a part of Christianity. And many, many Christians agree with them.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Because thinking these are important messages will Curse you! Indeed! The threat of Hell! The guilt of sin!

More like thinking that these are most important ones, heathen

Don't be nice to each other! Just screw those other people. Be nice to God! Just God!

Be nice to other people, but for the sake of God first, your own soul second, and only third for their sake. You being nice to them or not nice to them has no effect on their eventual fate - will they enjoy eventual bliss in Heaven or be permanently tortured in Hell - it depends on them only

Oh pray tell me what my hypocrisy is my dear newfound guru of teaching Christianity.

The hypocrisy of professing to preach Christian values, while preaching liberastic pinko "christian" ones

Seriously, Ziggy, you act like you've just learned about the positions and priorities of harsher, fundamentalist-evangelist branches of Christianity. I bet there're enough liberal (pinko fluffy punnies) Christian types who will, maybe with some reservations, support your sentiments.

 

[Reiser]

Funny you should say that.

Here we go: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=371182

Ah, good one, sir. Although I cannot think of how "doubt" can be falsehood, I also cannot think of how the opposite of doubt, which is believe and faith cannot be false as to what Christianity is based on, well, at least for my denomination of the religion.

Let me explain why belief is important to me. [lengthy couple o' paragraphs of explaining my denomination]

Spoiler :

I'm a Lutheran, which means I follow the denomination of Christianity made by Martin Luther (not the protestor in the 1950-60s). I guess you could call me a Protestant. What I believe that is probably the main difference between us and other denominations is that if you believe that Jesus Christ, the son of God, died on the Roman cross to pay for our sins, you go to heaven. If you don't, I guess that means the opposite. There is no middle.
Of course, there are many questions to be asked here, the primary one is "what about our sins?" The truthful answer is that we don't know where God draws the line for sin; however, if you, for example, commit murder every week and ask for forgiveness after each murder, God isn't going to just let each one pass. The line may be lower or higher, but we shouldn't be testing the line anyways.
And what about loving God? Time to look at the commandments.
The first three commandments (in the Lutheran Church) are about God and what we should do/act toward Him, and the next seven are about our neighbor* and what we should do/act toward them. Jesus summarized the two sections, and for the first one He said: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind." So, if you don't even love and fear (as He is the Mighty) then you might as well be breaking those three commandments, and also with the extra summarizing commandment.

*The word neighbor used in the Bible means, well, as I've known it, everyone.

Oh, Ziggy, just noticed your new post. I hope I'm not beating you.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Seriously, Ziggy, you act like you've just learned about the positions and priorities of harsher, fundamentalist-evangelist branches of Christianity. I bet there're enough liberal (pinko fluffy punnies) Christian types who will, maybe with some reservations, support your sentiments.

Truth be told, I was over acting a little there. Just having a laugh

Is posting overdramatically a sin?

Ah, good one, sir. Although I cannot think of how "doubt" can be falsehood, I also cannot think of how the opposite of doubt, which is believe and faith cannot be false as to what Christianity is based on, well, at least for my denomination of the religion.

Let me explain why belief is important to me. [lengthy couple o' paragraphs of explaining my denomination]

Spoiler :

I'm a Lutheran, which means I follow the denomination of Christianity made by Martin Luther (not the protestor in the 1950-60s). I guess you could call me a Protestant. What I believe that is probably the main difference between us and other denominations is that if you believe that Jesus Christ, the son of God, died on the Roman cross to pay for our sins, you go to heaven. If you don't, I guess that means the opposite. There is no middle.
Of course, there are many questions to be asked here, the primary one is "what about our sins?" The truthful answer is that we don't know where God draws the line for sin; however, if you, for example, commit murder every week and ask for forgiveness after each murder, God isn't going to just let each one pass. The line may be lower or higher, but we shouldn't be testing the line anyways.
And what about loving God? Time to look at the commandments.
The first three commandments (in the Lutheran Church) are about God and what we should do/act toward Him, and the next seven are about our neighbor* and what we should do/act toward them. Jesus summarized the two sections, and for the first one He said: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind." So, if you don't even love and fear (as He is the Mighty) then you might as well be breaking those three commandments, and also with the extra summarizing commandment.

*The word neighbor used in the Bible means, well, as I've known it, everyone.

Understand this isn't about saving people to not go to hell. This is about making this world a better place. Since I do not believe in an afterlife, me preaching how people should avoid an afterlife would be dishonest and hypocritical of me. So, I rather focus on the here and now.

This is simply me preaching the part of Christianity that appeals to me. And don't be mistaken I thought this would be useful in any way on a platform like an online message board. I was looking forward to the reactions though.

Oh, Ziggy, just noticed your new post. I hope I'm not beating you.

Nope.

 

[El_Machinae]

That's assuming that all the Old Testament is a falsehood. If you're saying that the entire Old Testament isn't true, then you're a little off. Much of it is well documented, especially the history of Isreal. I understand why people don't always believe the Creation story, and thus Adam, but what's wrong with Moses, Noah, the Plauges on Egypt, or anyother of the prophets or kings of Isreal?



Why is the story of the Great Flood a falsehood? If you look, almost every culture has a story of a great flood wiping out everything and only a few people surviving on a boat. The Greeks, Egyptians, Aztecs, Jews, Babylonians, and many others all have similar myths.

I'm not asking if it's possible to preach 'true Christianity' if the whole of the Old Testament is false: much of it is historically acceptable. Whole swaths of 'important bits' are untrue, though.

People seem to think that the 'forgiveness of sins' is an important point of 'true Christianity', but the two main sources of information of 'what is sin' are Paul and Jesus. Paul's conception of sin seems to require Adam's existence: his version of 'true Christianity' is based off of a falsehood! Is it foundationally based on a falsehood? Can one teach 'true Christianity' without relying on Paul's description of what sin is? It would be like trying to teach economics with a textbook that assumes the Great Depression never existed.

Jesus talks about the laws of Moses a great deal as if Moses existed. Is he fundamentally confused about what God's commandments were, such that we're all sinners? Would we still need forgiveness from God if Moses literally did not exist? Jesus's conception of Christianity seems to be based on a falsehood; is it possible follow his 'true message' without also believing them? It's like learning biology from someone who thinks that babies are delivered by storks.

"Love God, love your neighbour" is pretty solid. It doesn't require the existence of any of the OT mythical characters. It's something that can be preached, for sure. But preaching about Jesus's sacrifice for our sins leads to the question "what's a sin?", Paul's and Jesus's conception of sin is based on falsehood (i.e., Adam and Moses): can the message be rescued from that?

 

[kosiosko 1]

This is simply me preaching the part of Christianity that appeals to me. And don't be mistaken I thought this would be useful in any way on a platform like an online message board. I was looking forward to the reactions though.
Nope.

i think you fail to see the true simplicity of your message,
well his message actually,even his listeners did not get it straight away...
they had to ask "who is my nieghbour"
so he explained that to them as well...
Now its obvious to me that you have gone ..wow .. yes .. its just so simple
but you are missing on the follow up
its not your fault... people are just are not asking the right questions
well actually they don't ask questions, they are to preocupied telling you "your" message is wrong, maybe they think it is too political, the first guy had that trouble

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Now its obvious to me that you have gone ..wow .. yes .. its just so simple
but you are missing on the follow up

Patience, patience. It's going into the weekend now, and in three days I'll return.

 

[Smellincoffee]

How you preach christianity depends on what kind of christianity you're preaching. If you're going with Pauline christianity, with fixed doctrines complete with condemnation for those who differ, preying on peope's hopes and fears to establish your dogma is the way to go.

If you're preaching love, you don't have to preach. All you have to do is live in that way, and people will be drawn toward you.

As a Christian, I never found a single thing likeable about doctrine-Jesus. "Dying as a sacrifice for my sins"? Ill-thought out, boring. I believed it, but it didn't resonate with me. If God wants to save people from hell, guess what -- he didn't have to make Hell. He could make all the sinners go to cosmic rehab. The only reason orthodox Christianity has a torture pit is because the people who forged the orthodoxy were corrupt bastards with hard-ons for revenge and sadism.

Four years or so after I left christianity, I gained an appreciation for the radical-love approach of Gandhi, MLK, some Buddhists, and some interpretations of Jesus. I like Jesus now. No one had to preach Gandhi or that version of Jesus to me, I just saw something there I wanted to feel .

 

[bestrfcplayer]

So Saddam Hussein was okay? He killed other people and they killed him.

Nope. Not even close.

Ayn, Ayn, Ayn

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" not "Do unto others as they do unto you"

I agree with this.

 

[cardgame]

Is it possible to state an atheist(etc.) message without basing it on a falsehood?
What you believe is false doesn't mean it's false to all others. It's called "faith" to us.

“Faith is a cop-out. It is intellectual bankruptcy. If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can't stand on its own merits.”

 

[DroopyTofu]

Funny you should say that.

Here we go: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=371182

Ah, I think I see where the disconnect sets in. I did not mean to promote Christianity in it's entirety. I meant to preach those parts which made sense to me. Which is the message: "Be more empathic" and funny enough in the OP I added "for God's sake". But I meant that more as a saying then actually being literal. I truly meant "for humanity's sake". Mind, I'm not arguing that this whole God/Son of God relationship isn't important to Christianity. I don't think it's important to preaching the message: "Do unto others ...". I did not delve into the forgiving of the sins, because that would mean that instead of preaching Christianity I'd have to criticize it. And that wasn't my intention.

I don't see that preaching forgiveness of sins is criticizing Christianity. Everyone sins. "For all have sinned an fallen short of the glory of God" is Romans 3:23. To me, the point of Christianity is that even though I have sinned, I still have a way to be with God. That is Jesus Christ. I believe that it is important to be nice to and love my neighbor. There are two main reasons for this in the Bible. One is because God first loved me. I don't believe in salvation by works. I think that because I am loved so much by God, then I should love others. The other reason is very closely tied to this one, but a little different. I love others to show them how Christ loves them. It is similar to the passage (In Corinthians, I believe) about being the body of Christ. I will do kind things and show love towards others. When they ask "Why are you doing this for me?", then you can tell them about how Christ and God both love them.

I now realize, with quite a bit of amazement I might add, that the message in itself is deemed not worthy enough for Christians. It doesn't seem to hold up on it's own. The message needs to be backed by divinity. And here's where the disconnect happens. Such a simple, obvious powerful message needs divine acknowledgment to be complete.

LIke I said above, the message of "Love your neighbor" alone is not all of the Gospel. You also need to include why you should love your neighbor. See above for the why.

I'm not Christian but why would I want to do that? I made it as appealing as possible by excluding what I thought was excess baggage to promoting the Golden Rule. Strangely enough I am being told that as far as Christianity is concerned you should be nice to other people but more importantly you accept JC died on a cross for our sins, went to hell, came to live after 3 days is the Son of God and loves you. You should love each other, but more importantly, you should love God.

This. Truly. Astounds. Me. Boggles my mind. Also reminds me of David Bowie's Loving the Alien.
I'm surprised this thread did spark discussion at all
Trick people into believing Christianity is atheistic. Heh. Maybe if I meet people who just immigrated from Mars, I'd have a shot at that.

But, as I understand this correct, it's wrong to promote Christianity without including the whole God business. It's wrong to tell people Jesus wanted to spread the message people should have some empathy for each other, without saying: but first and foremost, you must have empathy towards God. And all Christians here seem to agree to that, so I have a last comment to make.

"The chief end of man is to glorify god." This is from a book called The Westminster Catechism (sp?). It's important to love each other, but it's also more important to love God. That's why he created man. Really, the true message of Christianity is that Christ died to save you from your sins and that all you have to do is accept the free gift of eternal life. That is what I believe the core of Christianity is. I think that you should love God becuase he first loved you. It is also important to love others, though.

I tried to find common ground. I tried to distill the part of Christianity that everyone could safely agree on. Instead of that, people seem to be more obsessed about the distinguishing features of this belief. They seem more obsessed by quoting parts of the Bible to me. It really does seem you guys think it's more important to Love the Alien. I really am disappointed.

And I'm afraid that this means I can no longer continue to preach Christianity. A religion that places anything above brotherly love towards your fellow human beings is not worthy of my support. A religion that has followers who focus on the differences rather than trying to support me in finding common ground with the kind of fervour displayed in this thread tell me that I am indeed not cut out to preach Christianity.

I apologize if I have misrepresented your believes as something that might unite people part of all kinds of different life philosophies. So sorry.

I think that we can find common ground, it's just a matter of the importance of the common ground. I think that is is more important to find common ground that everyone sins, and that to get into heaven, we need a savior. The savior is Christ.

Now you've quoted a lot of scripture at me and haven't had to form a single thought of your own, you just droned out irrelevant information to me, totally unrelated to the question. And still haven't answered the question to decide on priorities.

Lets try to convince people to be nicer to each other.

No, no! It's much more important to convince them Jesus died for our sins.

(I already withdrew my support from the kind of religion you guys are promoting. It's Nucking Futs)

I think that if you can convince someone that Jesus died for our sins, then they will want to love everyone else. You love others becuase you love God. Why not convince them to love God and love others at the same time?

Am I speaking Swahili over here? My "religion"? What on Earth are you talking about? I haven't got a religion my dear chap.

And I do realize there is punishment for sin. I did commit the sin of trying to find common ground for the Christian and the Atheist, and boy am I already paying for it. I'm being beaten here with sticks made out of frozen idiocy for my ignorance.
Well, you heard it here first folks.

<snip>

Which is a neat trick since I quoted him to get the message I was spreading.

Are there more than one Jesus? That would explain a lot.


DISCLAIMER: I'm only addressing CH's ideas about Christianity here, not CH himself, not Christianity in general. I haven't and wouldn't for instance react like this in reply to MobBoss, DroopyTofu or MagisterCultuum, who I think agreed that (apart from importance, but we settled that) what I was promoting was a part of Christianity. And many, many Christians agree with them.

I think that you are telling a true message, but with the wrong priorities. It is important to love each other, but that's not what defines a Christian.

I'm not asking if it's possible to preach 'true Christianity' if the whole of the Old Testament is false: much of it is historically acceptable. Whole swaths of 'important bits' are untrue, though.

People seem to think that the 'forgiveness of sins' is an important point of 'true Christianity', but the two main sources of information of 'what is sin' are Paul and Jesus. Paul's conception of sin seems to require Adam's existence: his version of 'true Christianity' is based off of a falsehood! Is it foundationally based on a falsehood? Can one teach 'true Christianity' without relying on Paul's description of what sin is? It would be like trying to teach economics with a textbook that assumes the Great Depression never existed.

Jesus talks about the laws of Moses a great deal as if Moses existed. Is he fundamentally confused about what God's commandments were, such that we're all sinners? Would we still need forgiveness from God if Moses literally did not exist? Jesus's conception of Christianity seems to be based on a falsehood; is it possible follow his 'true message' without also believing them? It's like learning biology from someone who thinks that babies are delivered by storks.

"Love God, love your neighbour" is pretty solid. It doesn't require the existence of any of the OT mythical characters. It's something that can be preached, for sure. But preaching about Jesus's sacrifice for our sins leads to the question "what's a sin?", Paul's and Jesus's conception of sin is based on falsehood (i.e., Adam and Moses): can the message be rescued from that?

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. I'm not really knowledgable enought to tackle the question of whether or not evolution or creation is true. If you believe in Creation, the Great Flood, Moses, King David, and the many other aspects of the Old Testament, then their are no falsehoods. I believe in all of that, so I see no problem with it.

How you preach christianity depends on what kind of christianity you're preaching. If you're going with Pauline christianity, with fixed doctrines complete with condemnation for those who differ, preying on peope's hopes and fears to establish your dogma is the way to go.

If you're preaching love, you don't have to preach. All you have to do is live in that way, and people will be drawn toward you.

As a Christian, I never found a single thing likeable about doctrine-Jesus. "Dying as a sacrifice for my sins"? Ill-thought out, boring. I believed it, but it didn't resonate with me. If God wants to save people from hell, guess what -- he didn't have to make Hell. He could make all the sinners go to cosmic rehab. The only reason orthodox Christianity has a torture pit is because the people who forged the orthodoxy were corrupt <snip> with hard-ons for revenge and sadism.

I've wondered why God didn't just save everyone on his own, before myself. I still don't totally get the concept, but the answer that I've gotten when I asked was that God is so perfect that it is impossible for him to be with something less perfect than himself. The only way humans can be sanctified is through Jesus Christ. If you don't accept the free gift of salvation, then when you die you have to go somewhere, which is to the Devil.

“Faith is a cop-out. It is intellectual bankruptcy. If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can't stand on its own merits.”

I disagree. Some things are just above human comprehension. God is so infinite, so powerful, and so divine that human minds can't comprehend him. It's simply beyond human understanding. I have faith that it's true, even if I don't fully understand it.

 

[_random_]

Well, given your clarifications, I can appreciate what you're doing. The fact of the matter is that nobody who's posted on this thread knows the truth in its entirety. If you have found truths that speak to you and wish to spread them, then that's noble. It's not like we ALL couldn't stand to be reminded of what you said, and as long as you recognize that Christian morals do not constitute the whole of Christianity, then I have no problem with your preaching them. And who knows, you may be well on your way to the rest of it.