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[Lord of Elves]

1. Italian Empire
2. Ardabalids
3. Kingdom of Sweden

Considering the competition for the Chobanids, I'd like to edit my countries of interest. Thanks.

 

[Toteone]

Perfectionist, in Italy, is it the center that is run by the Emperor. What about the Istrian and Istria, the Dalmatian coast and Carinthia (especially with the Carinthian lobby I'm not sure)?
How about Corsica?

 

[ChiefDesigner]

That seems rather low. Needleham likes to bandy around his figure of 300 million taels of silver flowing into China during the Ming dynasty. Annualised, that gives me a figure of somewhat more than a million taels a year of silver for the life of the dynasty for silver alone. Even with favourable tax rates, that's hard to reconcile even before we factor in the immense value of spice. Then there's the massive unquantifiable trade in 'drugs' and pepper. Not to mention, all the other stuff we don't really know all that much about. But you also have to factor in the effects of double - inter-provincial taxes - and triple taxing - sales taxes - not to mention tolls, the tribute trade and so forth. The probable effect is much greater than those intial figures suggest - and I'm still skeptical as to their veracity...

*shrug* I'm working off the numbers presented in the Cambridge History section on the Ming fiscal apparatus--I don't have any primary sources close to hand. Even internal tolls only amount to 320,000 taels or so, by the numbers I have--and presumably that includes overland trade and internal interprovincial commerce.

I think you need to look at the propesnity of merchants particularily in Southern China to become mermbers of scholar gentry themselves within a generation. It wouldn't be that much of a shift, really. And certainly not of the magnitude you seem to be suggesting.

...but the same body of work shows that the first thing merchants do when they earn money is buy land. Why take risks in something as dangerous as overseas trade, when rent extraction is both simpler and more profitable?

Additionally, there is the ideological test one has to pass before becoming a member of the scholar gentry... Success in the Confucian examinations is based on ability to internalize the Confucian canon and, essentially, recite accepted doctrine on command--and there are accounts of examiners flunking people with heterodox ideas (Kang Youwei perhaps being the canonical example.) Plutocratic government is a tremendously radical idea for the time period, given the governing institutions and ideologies that exist--and I don't feel like there has been a substantial enough challenge to the scholar-bureaucrat-landlord method of domination, certainly not one that warrants revolution as opposed to 'reform.' It took the OTL Industrial Revolution taking place in Japan to really bring down the Confucian order--rebellions and Mongol invasions certainly aren't going to be that transformative.

-----

This is an interesting conversation, and I'm certainly open to continuing it; perhaps we should take it elsewhere and/or move on? You clearly believe me to be mostly, but not entirely, too dumb to engage, and I think you're overlooking the incentives present and underestimating the social impact of Confucian ideology; regardless, we're probably boring most people here.

I will pick up the Steinberg later this week, but I think what I am looking for is an economic history of the region, which the Steinberg doesn't look to be. Any recs there, off the top of your head?

 

[Thlayli]

Perfectionist actually dumped some info in the NES development thread a while back. Here it is for your viewing pleasure.

RELIGION:

Monastics: Run by monastic orders, though they have by now proliferated beyond the original communal model; so long as a group has a rule on file in Ramsey and follows it, they count. Bishops are uniformly monastics. Headed by the Archabbot of Ramsey Abbey, which is sort of a hyper-Cluny. Officially recognizes Papal authority, but, due to the hardline stance against simony, considers every Pope for the last five hundred years or so to be illegitimate.
Roman Catholics: Doctrinally more or less your typical Roman Catholic church, but the Pope is an appointee of the Italian Emperor, and the Church apparatus in the Med has been for a long time virtually an arm of the Italian state. The Polish branch, while nominally subject to Rome, is practically a national Polish church; looks quite a bit like the Gallic church, really
Sicilian Catholics: The Sicilian branch of the Catholic church. Caesaropapist and headed by the Prince of Sicily, based largely on an ambiguously worded grant of legatine authority a few centuries back. Has lots of superficially Arabic and Greek influences (architecture, aesthetics, giving mass in Arabic, that sort of thing), that have led the Roman Catholics to label them crypto-Islamic heretics, but is actually more or less orthodox doctrinally.
Gaborites: An actually heretical offshoot of Catholicism. Initially based around a rejection of the heavily politicized Roman church, influenced to a certain extent by monastic ideals, and originally mostly just differed on the role of the Emperor in the church hierarchy. Has since developed ideas on the importance of the community of believers, strict separation of secular and religious authority, and rejection of some Catholic rituals/excesses; generally looks a bit Protestant at this point.

Hanafi Sunnis are pretty much your standard mainstream Sunni Islam. Since the Middle East has been controlled by Turks and Mongols for so long, it tends to be a bit more lax than usual, particularly on alcohol for instance, but otherwise no surprises.

Rushdite Sunnis grew out of the Malikite tradition, and particularly are based on the writings of the eleventh century Cordoban jurist Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Rushd. It's generally fairly liberal, particularly with regard to Christians, supportive of state authority over the ulema, and talks a lot about different aspects of God. It was consequently heavily supported by the post-Caliphal states in Andalusia.

The Dhahabi sect was founded by the Persian Uthman ibn al-Dhahabi is the late thirteenth century. They reject the necessity of the caliphate in general and the legitimacy of the last five hundred years of caliphs in particular (and in fact the last caliph was executed by the Persians a few decades back), deemphasize the importance of jurists in favor of the broader community, have fairly significant mystical Sufi-type elements, and consider the secular authority to be subservient to the religious community - it's the duty of all Dhahabis to revolt against a sinful secular authority, which is why the Temurids and Artuklu hated them so much. Their attitude towards other Muslims varies. The Muwahhidun branch, less extreme across the board, are relatively inclined to tolerate them; the Persian variety thinks pretty much everybody else except the Ibadis is a kafir.

GENERAL CHOBANID/MIDDLE EASTERN HISTORY:

Well, if you mean a political summary: conquered by the Salur Turkish Sultanate in the eleventh century. Salur splintered into competing regional polities starting from the late eleventh century; the Baghdad sultanate wound up securing most of the prize by the middle twelfth century, but the Mediterranean coast was held by competing Damascus- and Antioch-based sultanates. Both weakened in the twelfth century, the former under pressure from the Romans and the Baghdad Sultanate, the latter under Usfurid pressure. As of the Mongol advent, most of Syria was controlled by the Romans, most of Palestine and Jordan controlled by the Usfurids, and Iraq held by the Baghdad Sultanate. It all fell to the Mongols and was under Temurid control for the next century. As time progressed the Temurids became more and more focused on their borders with Rome and the Golden Horde, and the Turkish notables of Baghdad became increasingly influential in internal politics, so the governors of Syria and Jordan became increasingly autonomous. Said governors were briefly independent, with Egyptian encouragement, during the transition to Artuklu rule, but were suppressed by the center; the disastrous Egyptian attempt to protect Jordan at the time discouraged further Egyptian interference beyond Sinai for a long time. The Artuklu then ruled it all for a while, but the Artuklu were even more concerned with Persia and Rome, especially after the Kantakouzenid rise to power, than the Temurids had been, so the southern Levant was neglected as Artuklu rule continued; the disruption of the Eastern Med trade caused by the suppression of Sicily didn't help either, though Egyptians did eventually take over a lot of it. Jordan and Palestine broke away from the Artuklu shortly before the Sultanate collapsed while the rest of the regional elites had to look to their own defense after the Artuklu collapsed. Splinter states in the center warred amongst themselves for the empire, while external powers gobbled up the periphery: Anatolia fell to the Romans, a large part of Mesopotamia to the Persians, and the southern Levant fell under Egyptian influence, if not, in most cases, actual control. The Chobanids, meanwhile, were picking up steam, and wound up conquering Syria and conquering/rescuing northern Iraq, and finally brought the overstretched Roman reconquest to a dead halt in Cilicia. Riding high on prestige from that victory, and with the Romans and Persians distracted, they invaded Palestine. The Egyptians didn't try particularly hard to hold their positions, being themselves more concerned with maintaining their commercial position in the face of Roman assertiveness, and were in any case pretty rapidly trashed and thrown out. Without Egyptian backing the locals had no chance against the Chobanids, and were incorporated into the state.

 

[Toteone]

Thanks!

 

[Kraznaya]

The Omani description cuts off, Perfy

 

[Azale]

Nah he did that for dramatic effect.

 

[Masada]

I can't be bothered arguing. There's so much wrong, and so little time.

I will pick up the Steinberg later this week, but I think what I am looking for is an economic history of the region, which the Steinberg doesn't look to be. Any recs there, off the top of your head?

I think you need to avoid economic history.

 

[Thlayli]

No need to be that mean, Masada.

 

[Adrogans]

Isn't it a natural state for him though...I'd be worried if he wasn't

 

[madviking]

1. Other Novgorod
2. Moscowy
3. Yaroslavl

Credentials: backed by popular demand, has driven Dachs in his car, I maintain a Russian citizenship/heritage.

 

[Perfectionist]

Despite the fact that you use the second most intensely hideous map type I've seen in this forum

You mean the Symphonic style? It wouldn't be that much work for me to make a Northern style version too, if it bothers you that much.

Will we get a timeline summary later?

Yeah, I'm in the process of doing one.

I think you listed my choices as Abaddon's.

So I did. Sorry, fixed.

Perfectionist, in Italy, is it the center that is run by the Emperor. What about the Istrian and Istria, the Dalmatian coast and Carinthia (especially with the Carinthian lobby I'm not sure)?
How about Corsica?

Yes, the center is directly run by the imperial administration, as are the alpine territories. The Adriatic possessions are run by military governors appointed by the Emperor. The governor of Carinthia is likewise appointed by the emperor. Carinthia in particular has a fair bit of leeway in its government, but it's much less independent-minded than, say, Milan, and markedly pro-imperial anyway. Corsica exists in a sort of cheerful anarchy. The Sicilians and Italians had a bit of struggle over it for a while, but then they both realized that the Corsicans would pretty much change sides at the drop of a hat and there's nothing on Corsica worth garrisoning the place heavily enough to keep them loyal. Corsica nowadays is mostly run by various feuding native clans who pay lipservice to the emperor and not much else.

The Omani description cuts off, Perfy

So it does. Thanks for pointing it out, and it's now fixed.

 

[Dachs]

I was going to do this in PM, but I figured it would be more useful here: could you give me a DaNES II-style faction breakdown for Egypt, the Banu Ghaniya, the Romans, the Chubanids, Makuria, Makkah, Ethiopia, and the Zabidis?

 

[Masada]

Longfarts as well please

 

[Thlayli]

I was going to do this in PM, but I figured it would be more useful here: could you give me a DaNES II-style faction breakdown for Egypt, the Banu Ghaniya, the Romans, the Chubanids, Makuria, Makkah, Ethiopia, and the Zabidis?

Seconded for Sicily, Italy, Provence, Saraqusta, the Muwahidduns, and Liyun.

 

[Kraznaya]

... and Gascony and Lisbon for good measure.

 

[Bill3000]

And Lotharingia, Swabia, England, Frisia, Provence, Saxony, Thuringia, Lusatia, Denmark, Sweden, Friland, Bohemia, and Poland please!

 

[Azale]

and the Mongols too bro

 

[Ninja Dude]

Don't forget Yaroslavl and the Order.

 

[Yui108]

Someone probably mentioned the Aradabilids...but them too.