Pro-Russian regions in Ukraine threaten to secede

[Alone]

And we must prevent this - Russia must be contained, not appeased.

We? We?
Who are you?
You become part of "West" yesterday and already have such strong (extrem) opinion on that... I'm disgust on persons like you!

DO NOT LET WEST INTERFERENCE IN UKRAINE. THEY ALREADY DID MUCH TO PUSH PEOPLE THERE INTRECHMENT.

 

[Taliesin]

I agree that Russia is probably already active in East Ukraine, given that the Russian army is overtly aiding much more outspoken Abkhazian rebels in Georgia. The Abkhazians have already declared independence and, ex facto, given Russia's support and Georgia's inability to reassert sovereignty, Abkhazia is a separate state, carving a good chunk out of Georgia's west. Of course, it isn't recognised internationally, but East Ukraine could solve the problem by joining Russia.

 

[h4ppy]

I still don't see what is so bad about letting the Russians back in Russia. (from the sound of it the eastern Ukraine is just Russians who got caught on the wrong side of the border)

 

[Winner]

I for one think a stronger Russia can only be a good thing- our current one-superpower situation is not a good one.

And no country can call itself democratic if it doesn't let a region that overwhelmingly wants to secede to secede.

I as one who lived few years in sattelite state of soviet Russia know, that this must NEVER, NEVER repeat.

Okay, we need another superpower. But why the hell Russia? Russians are absolutely the same as they were during USSR and i have no interest in being subdued again.

I am afraid that some people in West don't really know, what are they talking about, when the topic is Russia.

 

[Winner]

We? We?
Who are you?
You become part of "West" yesterday and already have such strong (extrem) opinion on that... I'm disgust on persons like you!

DO NOT LET WEST INTERFERENCE IN UKRAINE. THEY ALREADY DID MUCH TO PUSH PEOPLE THERE INTRECHMENT.

And I am amused with some people in the so-called West, who are living all their life in nice democratic country respecting human rights and don't have any single experience with non-democratic regime, but are trying to teach us about stance towards Russia

So be quiet and try to study, what is it all about.

 

[Uiler]

One thing is in the East a lot of anti-Western sentiment is fanned by the state control media. For example there are TV ads comparing the opposition leader with Hitler. The not very subtle message (e.g one ad has Yushenko kissing babies followed by a video of Hitler kissing babies) being that the opposition are Fascists. I suspect this works because the people in West Ukraine who really hated Russia welcomed Hitler as "liberating" them from Russia so the people in the West regions are seen by those in the East as associated with Hitler and the Nazis. Also, don't forget, Hitler and the Nazis were capitalists.

Also the state controlled media have done a good job in convincing the East Ukranians that the problems of the East are entirely blamed on the West in Kiev. That the Western Ukrainians are leeching off the East Ukrainians and if the East Ukrainians could get more autonomy and pay less tax then their economic problems would disappear.

Here is a good article on how both leaders are seen from the other side:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A18131-2004Nov28_2.html

"Yushchenko has been portrayed as the servant of extreme, Russophobe nationalists from the western part of the country who would suppress the Russian language and assault the Orthodox Church, which is under the authority of the Moscow Patriarchate. Leaflets found in Orthodox churches have described Yushchenko as a "partisan of the schismatics and an enemy of Orthodoxy."

...Yushchenko, who favors closer ties with the European Union and NATO, has also been depicted as a CIA stooge, with opposition supporters noting that he is married to an American who once worked for the U.S. government."

..."Yanukovych supporters are not voting for the prime minister," said Mikhail Pogrebinsky, a political adviser to Kuchma. "They're voting against Yushchenko because they fear the threat represented by the radical nationalists in his team who hate Russian culture. It's a real threat."

On the other hand:

"The opposition leader's backers see Yanukovych as the puppet of a post-Soviet elite, centered in Donetsk, that has gorged itself on privatization deals, reaping fabulous wealth from the country's mining and steel industries.

Yushchenko supporters also portray Yanukovych, who reportedly had two teenage convictions for robbery and assault, as a thug whose sometimes coarse language and poor Ukrainian are emblematic of his unfitness for high office.

In some opposition posters, Yanukovych's forces are shown as a boot crushing an insect.

"He will turn the country into a criminal state," said Oksana Sytnik, 37, who runs a small company in Romny, near the border with Russia. "If he wins, I think we have to leave, for Canada or America."

As the article puts it the real danger is:

"Everyone thinks that if they lose, they lose everything."

"I have heard they are sending units here," a middle-aged man said on Ukraina television, referring to Yushchenko supporters. "We have nothing left to do but organize self-defense."

This is a good article describing Ukraine's bloody past.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,11536673^2703,00.html

But nationalist sentiment -- especially in the west -- would be enraged by any prospect of the industrial powerhouse regions in the east becoming closer to Moscow than to Kiev after centuries of suffering from conflicts born in Russia.

In the convoluted Russian civil war of 1918-21 a bewildering array of 11 separate armies took to the field in Ukraine, with Kiev alone changing hands 15 times in two years.

A decade later Stalin deliberately starved about 7million people to death in an attempt to kill Ukrainian nationhood.

The resulting hatred for the Russians was so strong that the invading Nazis were welcomed by many in the east, despite Hitler not offering Ukraine even the token self-government he planned for conquests such as Poland.

The east-west split of modern Ukraine began centuries earlier when its broad plains -- the richest farming soil in Europe -- were carved up so Russia controlled the east, and the west was ruled by Poland, and later Austria.

Another element is the economic element:

Yanukovich's popularity among the coalminers and factory workers of the east was built during five years as governor of the Donetsk region, when he protected working conditions and staved off reforms that would have cost jobs and cut wages.

Yushchenko, on the other hand, is a liberal economist who has championed the sort of reforms that can be painful for such workers.

The result is that Yanukovich is unfairly denounced by his rivals as a backward-looking Soviet commissar, while Yushchenko, who has an American wife, is portrayed as a heartless US puppet. Both are crude political caricatures.

 

[h4ppy]

the Western Ukrainians are leeching off the East Ukrainians

From the posts in this thread I am inclined to think that that might be true.

 

[Alone]

And I am amused with some people in the so-called West, who are living all their life in nice democratic country respecting human rights and don't have any single experience with non-democratic regime, but are trying to teach us about stance towards Russia

So be quiet and try to study, what is it all about.

Not only that you agresive and arogant but you are also new to this site...

I was born and lived in east Europe for 30 years! I know what is look like living in comunism regime much better than you (alltho' much milder than in your country). My parents and myself were sufer so much becouse that. I was also in civil war that hit my ex country, I saw death and destruction among my countrymans on diferent side but also the same coming from "West" democratic regime... So I speak from expirience, unfortunetly.

I find no diference among Russia or Czhehia (been in both country) (or should I say Moravska?) or Ukraine! I've been n lived in "you so called" west and east.

You on the other side look like spoilen ex-commie becomin' new right winger. (biger chatolic than pope!)

I hope my present country will not take any stuped move about Ukraine. I hope they are not looking for new Sadam, new Balkan, Somalia... to send there "peacemakers" there after completly ruined whole regions...

 

[storealex]

The people should just vote if they wanted to be one country or not. And if not, vote where they borders should be. That's what we did between Germany and Denmark.

 

[Alone]

The people should just vote if they wanted to be one country or not. And if not, vote where they borders should be. That's what we did between Germany and Denmark.

One of the good ideas...

edit: Btw, GREAT AVATAR

 

[nico65]

Well, if Yushchenko becomes president after a new round of elections he may well want to preserve the unity of the nation. No Ukrainian government has any interest in a over dimensioned trans-Dnestjer, so is it not possible the central government under Yushchenko will act, if necessary with force against separatists, like the government of Georgia was talking about doing against their Russian separatists.
If such a situation arises, isn’t it possible the Russians could pull a stunt like they did in Kosovo, only on a larger scale. I Russian troops move into the Eastern Ukraine and occupy key strategic locations; it will be up to the Ukrainian government what price the unity of the country is worth.
I’m not saying it will happen, but NATO can pose no credible military threat with the bulk of the best US troops in Iraq, in case of a war there is not much we will be able to do. If Putin wants to play tough, now is the time to do it.

 

[Tank_Guy#3]

While it's true many of the US's soldiers are in Iraq, we still have a substantial number left in reserve should there be a civil war in the Ukraine. By the way does the Ukraine have any oil or that kind of thing?

 

[storealex]

I’m not saying it will happen, but NATO can pose no credible military threat with the bulk of the best US troops in Iraq, in case of a war there is not much we will be able to do. If Putin wants to play tough, now is the time to do it.

Russia is bogged down in Checheyna, and that's place really showed the world how weak Russia has become. An other exposure is not in Putins interest, neither is conflict with the West.

 

[nico65]

http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101030901/popup/index.html
http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20030819-094823-5897r.htm

No matter how you look at it the US has stretched itself too thin. With 491,000 combat troops all in all and 370,000 deployed over seas, there is already such a shortage that 136,000 reservist and national-guard’s have been activated. The US, like all other Western nations, has since the end of the cold war neglected its army; cutbacks have in a few years destroyed what will take a very long time to rebuild. Heck in the current situation the US even has to extend its troops in Iraq because there aren’t enough troops to maintain a system where they are home 50% of the time.
If NATO had to fight in the Ukraine, you would have to call in all off-duty personnel, stop all rotations, and mobilize the bottom of the barrel, and even then there would be a lack of able troops. Do you honestly believe the remaining members of the National Guard; are of the same quality as those already activated, and that is not to compare them to the professional troops?

 

[nico65]

Russia is bogged down in Checheyna, and that's place really showed the world how weak Russia has become. An other exposure is not in Putins interest, neither is conflict with the West.

Very true, but this has not keept him from threatening Georgia, with military action, since they started talking about the need to clamp down on Russian backed insurgents.

 

[storealex]

Very true, but this has not keept him from threatening Georgia, with military action, since they started talking about the need to clamp down on Russian backed insurgents.

Georgia is a tiny nation compared to Ukraine, and when we're talking Russia, there's a huge difference between threats and actions.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Full-scale war in the Ukraine would be an unmitigated disaster for all concerned. Little risk any outsider spark one off if they can help it.

 

[Winner]

Not only that you agresive and arogant but you are also new to this site...

No, I am not.

I was born and lived in east Europe for 30 years! I know what is look like living in comunism regime much better than you (alltho' much milder than in your country). My parents and myself were sufer so much becouse that. I was also in civil war that hit my ex country, I saw death and destruction among my countrymans on diferent side but also the same coming from "West" democratic regime... So I speak from expirience, unfortunetly.

Than don't relate it to yourself. I am sorry for that, but what I said is pure truth.

I find no diference among Russia or Czhehia (been in both country) (or should I say Moravska?) or Ukraine! I've been n lived in "you so called" west and east.

Well, if you can't spell it right, there is something wrong in you knowledge about Czech rep. There is PROFOUND difference, in economy, culture, democratic standards, level of development, corruption, crime and so forth. We are roughly on the level of former East Germany (without so big wages), but we've reached it without help of some western country providing us trillion of Euro.
So maybe you are the one who is offensive here.

You on the other side look like spoilen ex-commie becomin' new right winger. (biger chatolic than pope!)

OK, so when I hate communists for what they did to my country, I am hypocritical. Astounding logic indeed. We were once 10th most developed country in the world, then, the so-called West has n fact "gave" us to Hitler, then they gave us to Stalin. So I am really not the one who should be ashamed.

I hope my present country will not take any stuped move about Ukraine. I hope they are not looking for new Sadam, new Balkan, Somalia... to send there "peacemakers" there after completly ruined whole regions...

EU wants democratic government in Ukraine. What is bad about this? Should we again surrender to some dictator, let him oppres "his" people and threaten peace? Another appeasement?

 

[Winner]

I still hope that peace solution will be found. But it is true the negotiations aren't proceeding well. Maybe Solana will acomplish anything, but I don't believe that.

Lets see what Putin will do if the Eastern Ukraine secedes (or declares so-called authonomy). He may provide them support or either backing their independence by threats to Western Ukraine.

 

[Alone]

[QUOTE/]No, I am not.[/QUOTE]

Yes, you are...

[QUOTE/]Than don't relate it to yourself. I am sorry for that, but what I said is pure truth.[/QUOTE]

Buh..


[QUOTE/]Well, if you can't spell it right, there is something wrong in you knowledge about Czech rep. There is PROFOUND difference, in economy, culture, democratic standards, level of development, corruption, crime and so forth. We are roughly on the level of former East Germany (without so big wages), but we've reached it without help of some western country providing us trillion of Euro.
So maybe you are the one who is offensive here.[/QUOTE]

No. It's something wrong with my English skills still In mine language name of your country is the same as in your country. It's good that you have high opinion of your fatherland...but again, you should put your nose down, it's not even close how you describe it. I've been recently in Czech Republic and it look nice (but Russia looks nice too), I have some friends here coming as immigrants from both of that countries and they equaly thinks "not that good" about situation there (or maybe I should trust you who live there if you can compare that with some other exept East Germany...) As for the diference with Russia, off course that there is a diference in culture, history... I didn't ment that way but simply the people and general facts... still I found odd that you describe your country superior in anything than Russia (it is so big and still powerfull country, so how they achive that without big culture, high tech etc...)

[QUOTE/]OK, so when I hate communists for what they did to my country, I am hypocritical. Astounding logic indeed. We were once 10th most developed country in the world, then, the so-called West has n fact "gave" us to Hitler, then they gave us to Stalin. So I am really not the one who should be ashamed.[/QUOTE]

Maybe I'm overreacted about you (or not?). Apology if so True and too bad what happened with Czechs (and Moravians) and Slovaks after WWII, but thats the prize to be payed for ethnicly cleaning country from Sudet and other Germans lived there at the time (same apply for Poland) no matter what happened (France did not did that, nor, sarcasticly USSR)...



[QUOTE/]EU wants democratic government in Ukraine. What is bad about this? Should we again surrender to some dictator, let him oppres "his" people and threaten peace? Another appeasement? [/QUOTE]

I don't see who is dictating to whom here... They are both the same for me, they both want domination of there part of country to another. AND THAT IS A MAIN PROBLEM! If you (and others in this thread) don't see that, you are to me only Catholic crusader against Ortodoxy to me. It's only strugle for more power the same type of people and Yuskiewich (spell?) is "better" only becouse he's ruting for west that can not be necessery (and is not at all) biger Democratic regime than other side. NOONE SHOULD INTERFEAR IN UKRAIN DOMESTIC AFFAIR, NOT WEST NOT RUSSIA LET THEM SOLVE PEACFULLY THAT PROBLEM IF THEY CAN. HELP 'EM IF POSSIBLE IN THAT DIRECTION, AND WHAT I SEE HERE IS JUST RUTHLESS ROOTING FOR ONE SIDE AND THE OTHER IS "EVIL". SEEN THAT, BEEN THERE...