Proofs that God is imaginary

[Ziggy Stardust]

That would be me, but I kinda relied on the -smiley to show I wasn't being serious

I took it that only applied to: "Now get off your lazy butt and start curing cancer"

Well, that brings us back to El Mac's statement doesn't it? Clearly we shouldn't try to cure cancer.

 

[Abaddon]

Perhaps you're allowed to if you have cancer.

An who doesnt have a mole?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Perhaps you're allowed to if you have cancer.

And if you succeed, you should keep it to yourself.

That would work

 

[Abaddon]

Deal. i'm keeping my cancer cure, good luck with yours. BTW the answer is in you.

 

[PhroX]

I agree on your conclusion, but only based on the premise that we are not created with a true free will.

Imagine the future as a flow sheet, where your action A leads to B in response from me, and so on. In just a few steps the future holds lim--> infinite possible scenarios.

So; what if God decided to limit his own omniscience by giving man (and the angels, according to the Bible) true free will? What if he knows every possible outcome, and that it will always end well? What if he's up there somewhere wondering what your next response to this thread will be?
I'm quite possibly being heretic here, but I'd like that God.

If God is wondering what my response will be, then he's not the being claimed in religious texts. If God is truely all seeing, all knowing and all powerful, then even a number that to all intents and purposes is infinite would not be beyond his comprehension.

That said, a non-all powerful "God" who created the universe (ie set off the big bang), then sat back to watch, without any further interference, what would happen makes far more sense to me than any "God" found in religion. It's as good a cause of the BB that anyone's come up with. Doesn't really explain much, as you then have to come up with a cause for "God", but it's more believable to me, than the meddling contradictory "God" of religion.

W/r to God being omnipotent: think of the alternative, God decided not to create heaven and earth. Would that make him more good than by creating this imperfect world?

I would say this: if God is indeed all powerful, and he knew beforehand that "evil" would some into his creation, then not creating the universe would be more "good" in an absolute sense.

If, for whatever reason, he did not know beforehand, then I would not say that creating the universe was evil (wrong perhaps, but not evil).

Also, if people truly have a free will, it's up to us to change the world.

You won't find me disagreeing with that.

 

[Capt Buttkick]

If God is wondering what my response will be, then he's not the being claimed in religious texts. If God is truely all seeing, all knowing and all powerful, then even a number that to all intents and purposes is infinite would not be beyond his comprehension.

I agree, but I don't think you're attacking the central point of my argument. What if God gave up some of his omniscience in favour of creating beings with free will?
If God is omnipotent, he should be able to limit his omniscience.

That said, a non-all powerful "God" who created the universe (ie set off the big bang), then sat back to watch, without any further interference, what would happen makes far more sense to me than any "God" found in religion. It's as good a cause of the BB that anyone's come up with. Doesn't really explain much, as you then have to come up with a cause for "God", but it's more believable to me, than the meddling contradictory "God" of religion.

I can't argue with deism. I agree that it's "more believable" in many respects.

I would say this: if God is indeed all powerful, and he knew beforehand that "evil" would come into his creation, then not creating the universe would be more "good" in an absolute sense.

I disagree, but I see your point. I'd also like to refer to the above which questions whether God knew that evil would enter creation.

 

[Capt Buttkick]

I took it that only applied to: "Now get off your lazy butt and start curing cancer"

Well, that brings us back to El Mac's statement doesn't it? Clearly we shouldn't try to cure cancer.

No; supposing we're not to blame (although many christians will claim sin entered the world because man allowed it to), doesn't mean we're not charged to do something about it.

So the bully at your school beat up your kid brother. You don't think your parents would appreciate it if you took your brother's side?

 

[eastsidebagel]

I just love that gta-typo there

That certainly proofs that I played GTA too much in my youth, so that it's still stuck in my subconciousness!
THX for pointing that mistake for me out though!

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

No; supposing we're not to blame (although many christians will claim sin entered the world because man allowed it to), doesn't mean we're not charged to do something about it.

But the condition is supposedly set by God, and he expects us to set it right?

What am I? A gameshow?

So the bully at your school beat up your kid brother. You don't think your parents would appreciate it if you took your brother's side?

Hey, I wasn't the one arguing against "messing with other people's business".

 

[Phlegmak]

Everyone agrees that gods are imaginary, they just disagree about which gods are imaginary.

Not only that, but religious people are atheists too. The number of gods they don't believe in is enormous.

Where is Heaven and Hell in America?

Yes, there's a hell in the US. When foreign criminals come here, commit crimes, are put in jail, and their parent country won't take them back. Such a thing has happened with Cuba. There are illegal Cuban aliens in Louisiana who are in exactly this situation. The end result is they stay in jail indefinitely until something else can be done with them.

 

[El_Machinae]

No; supposing we're not to blame (although many christians will claim sin entered the world because man allowed it to), doesn't mean we're not charged to do something about it.

So, we're supposed to do something that God won't do? Now, I think that we should be curing cancer, don't get me wrong, but it's not because I have godly intentions. In fact, I'm endeavouring to undo some of the evils caused by the god that people claim to love.

 

[Abaddon]

You are so going to hell.. thats if he can get you there!

 

[Phlegmak]

I'm endeavouring to undo some of the evils caused by the god that people claim to love.

Extremely well put. In fact, nearly all of human progress could be said to be accomplishing the same.

 

[Capt Buttkick]

So, we're supposed to do something that God won't do? Now, I think that we should be curing cancer, don't get me wrong, but it's not because I have godly intentions. In fact, I'm endeavouring to undo some of the evils caused by the god that people claim to love.

The God you don't believe in is a puppeteer. I claim God doesn't heal cancer because we should do it ourselves.
The God I'd like to believe in (but am failing most the time) is a God who is relying on people to do good, because with free will comes a promise he won't meddle too much.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

The God you don't believe in is a puppeteer. I claim God doesn't heal cancer because we should do it ourselves.

Again, why?

In a universe without God, I can see why we should cure it. There doesn't need to be a reason why cancer exists, there only needs to be a cause. But why does God create cancer and tell us: cure this! Why simply not create cancer in the first place.

 

[eastsidebagel]

The God I'd like to believe in (but am failing most the time) is a God who is relying on people to do good, because with free will comes a promise he won't meddle too much.

The God you believe in must a hypocritical, sadistic evil-doer then! He creates cancer, millions of people suffer and die from it, and yet, he still relies on our own intellect to cure it! Why did he create this horrendous decease in the first place? And what about Aids, Ebola, the Pest etc.? And why does it seem to me that we are all just his mindless marionettes in his big, pointless game of chess when this God is really existent at all?

 

[Capt Buttkick]

I'm endeavouring to undo some of the evils caused by the god that people claim to love.

Extremely well put. In fact, nearly all of human progress could be said to be accomplishing the same.

Come on, blaming evil on religion is not a very constructive way to move forward, considering the huge masses of people who believe in a god of some sorts.

And if you're saying you believe there's a god out there, but he's evil, I can't help thinking we'd be even worse off than we are...

 

[Capt Buttkick]

Again, why?

In a universe without God, I can see why we should cure it. There doesn't need to be a reason why cancer exists, there only needs to be a cause. But why does God create cancer and tell us: cure this! Why simply not create cancer in the first place.

Again, christians would answer that Satan brought pain and suffering into the world. Since he himself is a being of free will, the same logic as above applies.

But really, you're asking the wrong man here. I'm just throwing out a hypothesis that would bind together some of the more glaring holes in christianity. I've been very clear that I just don't know. I'd like to believe, but I find the basis (2000+ year old books) a bit too weak. Epicurius has nothing to do with it, though.

 

[Capt Buttkick]

The God you believe in must a hypocritical, sadistic evil-doer then! He creates cancer, millions of people suffer and die from it, and yet, he still relies on our own intellect to cure it! Why did he create this horrendous decease in the first place? And what about Aids, Ebola, the Pest etc.? And why does it seem to me that we are all just his mindless marionettes in his big, pointless game of chess when this God is really existent at all?

I don't think you've read much of my posts in this thread.

 

[Mowque]

The God you believe in must a hypocritical, sadistic evil-doer then! He creates cancer, millions of people suffer and die from it, and yet, he still relies on our own intellect to cure it! Why did he create this horrendous decease in the first place? And what about Aids, Ebola, the Pest etc.? And why does it seem to me that we are all just his mindless marionettes in his big, pointless game of chess when this God is really existent at all?

Easily the best argument against the existence of God. I really can't offer anything concrete since it is a good point. Only a few weak counter-points.

1. Maybe in the long term all those terrible things are actually minor? (considering I'm going to live forever)
2. "My ways are your not your ways. My thoughts are not your thoughts." So the old adage...God works in mysterious ways.