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Proposed Policy Change - the Modiquette

Discussion in 'Site Feedback' started by leif erikson, Dec 7, 2012.

  1. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    I believe it would be much better to clearly state that again. :)

    Within the Civ4:Colonization community, there is no bitterness to my experience.
    (I don't know enough about the other communities to say something.)

    Well of course, there have also been arguments and discussions.
    But that is normal and usually these things got clarified again.

    There have also been a few cases where modders did not want to share or only shared under some conditions.
    But this was usually caused because these modders felt they did not get enough support or cooperation themselves from others.

    In some cases these modders could be convinced to rethink their opinion by offering support and assistance.
    In some cases they could not be convinced (yet). But as long as they are still around, there is still a chance to do so.
    And even if they can never be convinced to share and cooperate, community will at least still have their mods to play.

    Trying to force people to do something is the wrong approach.

    Most of the experienced modders know each other for years and have been sharing and cooperating forth and back.
    In many cases really good friendships grew out of these cooperations.

    These modders know that they heavily profit by good relations to each other.
    Thus they will take care themselves that things stay like this within their community.

    But good relationships between modders require some respect for each other and each others work.

    That is why I personally believe, that a modder has the right to state "terms of usage" if he feels that they are necessary.
    And these "terms of usage" should be respected then, of course.

    A guideline (something like the modiquette) is still a good thing however, since it tells new members,
    how things usually work withing the community and what kind of behaviour the community will thus expect.

    By the way:
    Merry Chirstmas. :)
     
  2. Commander Bello

    Commander Bello Say No 2 Net Validations

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    Once again, I want to put your attention to the point of practicability.

    Up to now, this was not an issue. Somebody released something, and people made use of it. To give proper credits was a matter of courtesy and good habits. In turn, it was a matter of courtesy and good habit to allow use of one's material.
    There wasn't much to worry about and you could make use of each and everything which was made available (from a technical point of view - and just to be clear, I am not talking about third party content here) to you.

    This way, everybody could work on his ideas which lead to a multitude of mods being released. Some where small, some were big. Some were "good", some were just "mediocre".
    But all what was regarded as being "good" was used. In many cases again and again, and by this reusing the creators became prominent and got a good reputation for their work.

    Now let's have a look at a likely scenario if "restriction rules" are implaced.
    Mr. A creates a leaderhead.
    Mr. B, giving proper credit to Mr. A, creates a new civilization (1) based on that leaderhead.
    Mr. C, giving proper credit to Mr. B, adds a new unittype to that civilization.
    Mr. D, giving proper credit to Mr. C, changes the name of the civilization (2) and changes the stats for that unittype. He restricts any changes to his mod.

    What does that mean now for me, who is findiing this mod D?
    What am I allowed to change?
    I wouldn't be allowed to change the unittype stats?
    I wouldn't be allowed to change the civilization's name?
    I wouldn't be allowed to pick the leaderhead and attach it to a third civilization (3)?
    I would have to do everything from scratch again, but have to point out that I have done so and that the difference between my mod and Mr. D's mod is only in point XYZ?
    And how would I be able to prove that I did everything from scratch?

    And even better, let us assume that Mr. D restricts the changing of his mod some time after he has released it.
    What does this mean for my mod, which was maybe started but not yet released?
    And if it was released already, but I want to change the stats later on, would I be allowed to do so?

    All these questions sound quite silly now, as at the moment we are all used to work in the current way.
    They may sound less silly after "restriction rules" have been implaced.

    Up to now, the modding community worked implicitely following the principle of "give and take". This principle would no longer work.

    Do we as a community really want to go the way of Apple vs. Samsung, where people are battling about who invented which design first and which gesture belongs into whose intellectual property?
     
  3. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    I think you are exaggerating. Changing the unit stats has nothing to do with modifying the unit model and releasing it as your own publicly, without caring at all about the wishes of its creator. Most people would agree that altering unit stats is not artistic creation, and they indeed are part of the game's engine, so again your example is not correct.
     
  4. Commander Bello

    Commander Bello Say No 2 Net Validations

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    My example is very correct, because "modifying" means changing.
    Now you may come and try to argument that creating a graphical model of a building requires more manual work than creating a proper set of unit stats. Actually, I doubt that. Changing unit stats so that a properly working set of units results from it isn't easy, either... and it may even require more intellectual "work".
    Who are you to rate the one person's work higher than the other's?

    And even if your were right, you and your attitude of "you may look at it, but you may not 'touch' it" still loads the burden of examining each single case on the moderators.

    As I have said earlier already, you feel entitled to make use of the Hagia Sophia, which clearly is the "work" of other people. You do so, just because you "can" and you aren't giving anything about the fact that it wasn't you who originally thought out the appearance of that building.
    You aren't any less just copying anything as anybody else who would make use of your "precious" models.
    And the question still remains valid: what would make your models so "precious"? In my eyes, they get their attention just because of one thing - that they can be used in the game.
    How many people would look at your "Hagia Sophia", it it couldn't be used in the game? Almost nobody.
    But still you try to claim "special rights" for yourself, and at the very same moment try to deny these rights for others.
     
  5. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    Not true, since the hagia model by myself has been used in other games too. In fact it does not exist as a civIV model yet. So your argument again is not correct.

    As for intellectual strife, yeah, you could argue that indeed a huge mod of altering unit stats and other such things very well could be needing more work and thought than making a model. However you did not compute my suggestion that the unit stats (and other similar alterations) are indeed 100% something supplied as a possibility with the game's engine, and thus not owned by any modder. Unlike a model, which exists entirely independantly of the civ series, and can be used in it, or not, or can still be used in other games.
     
  6. deanej

    deanej Deity

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    I think the controversy began because the civ3 community appears to have different community standards than the civ4 and civ5 modding communities do.
     
  7. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    I do not recall this having started as a civIII issue. Was not there some mod in civIV that began this discussion?

    I would expect that in civIV most people collaborate so as to make anything, that is one person makes the model, another the skins, perhaps even a third the animation etc. If one is making everything then it is a bit more personal. But i am only guessing here.
     
  8. deanej

    deanej Deity

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    I'm referring to the current argument/controversy - not the modetiquette itself.
     
  9. Ogedei_the_Mad

    Ogedei_the_Mad Caffeinated Khagan

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    I'd say this is a nice little example of the "pot calling the kettle black."

    The whole argument began with Civ4. We did not spark the formation of the Modiquette. Until now, we've dealt with matters within Civ3 without needing to resort to inciting a little insurrection to create a site-wide policy.

    And Civ3 operates in a fundamentally different manner from Civ4 or Civ5.
     
  10. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    Compte d' Ogedei is right. In civIII we have been functioning just fine without any need for a modiquette. The few and far between instances of people who abused the unwritten laws were dealt by the local mods, and that was the end of it.

    I do not see why such different games should have a centralized set of laws regarding their modding. From what i understand it is a lot rarer in civIV to see any really new model being made. From my time there as an uploader of some models i happened to realize that only 3 other modellers of buildings were active, which surprised me since in civIII, a much older game, we have more building creators around (and a lot more unit creators, it would seem).

    Bottom line being that you cannot really hope to make rules that will be good for all games in the series, due to the different ways they are being modded.
     
  11. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    Just to get some sense of the difference between modding civIII and civIV, here is something i am currently working on:

    Spoiler :


    This is all one part of one file, a city set. It has four main models, three minor ones and walls (walls not shown here). In CivIV it would have effectively been either eight different uploads of single models, or part of a city set and some remaining models.
    This is just one file in CivIII, and one of these gets uploaded every few days. In a week that is more than 30 models.

    Others, like Ogedei, make 1 file out of a full 4-era city.

    Point being that we are into giganticism in civIII, and we would like to keep it that way. Now a rule that made our work free-for-all derivatives-wise would surely deal a major blow to our community, which has thrived for more than a decade. In plain terms we have no use for such a law against the creators.

    I am not one to say if the CivIV community needs it, and know next to nothing about the CivV one. But the CivIII forum has no use of it at all in my view.
     
  12. Takhisis

    Takhisis Free Hong Kong

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    up yours!
    But you're dorcing a choice right there!
    Upvoted.
     
  13. Delta_Strife

    Delta_Strife Deity

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    Upvoted Again
     
  14. mourndraken

    mourndraken King

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    The only rule I like begins with no .

    Nobody owns my creative efforts .
     
  15. Monaldinio

    Monaldinio Prince

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    End of Discussion?!

    What is the result?!?
     
  16. Plotinus

    Plotinus Philosopher Super Moderator

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    The staff have been discussing this, and this is what we've come up with as a revised proposal on the basis of the concerns raised here and elsewhere.

    Rather than changing the Modiquette and making it normative (i.e. part of the rules), we suggest simply adding the following to the site rules:

    The Modiquette itself can retain the status it's always had, namely that of an unofficial, non-binding "gentlemen's agreement" within the Civ V C&C community. That way we're not imposing the undiscussed parts of it on those communities that haven't discussed it before.

    The Modiquette will require some alteration so that it doesn't clash with the new rule. We suggest (changes in bold):

    So, in sum, we stick the new rule into the Rules, and leave the Modiquette as it was, within the Civ V C&C community, with the same status (with the small changes indicated above for consistency with the new rule). Other C&C communities here, such as Civ III C&C, can discuss whether to adopt the Modiquette if they want to, or an alternative version, or nothing at all, as they see fit.

    This seems to us the best way forward in light of everything that's been said here.

    Thoughts?
     
  17. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Deity

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    Sounds perfect in my opinion!
     
  18. Flying Pig

    Flying Pig Utrinque Paratus

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    That's what I, and I think quite a chunk of people, have been suggesting for a while - sounds pretty perfect to me.
     
  19. Buster's Uncle

    Buster's Uncle AC2 Co-Owner

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    I've always taken a relaxed attitude about having my work adapted by others, insisting only that due credit be given, but I object to having CFC imposing this sort of rule to work linked from my SMAC(X) forum. That's pretty high-handed, and would tend to sour me on sharing the occasional GotM here.

    Indeed, I control what I link here, but do not like the notion that I somehow surrender any rights because someone else happened to post a link to my work. I hate to be difficult over a matter of principle for rights I never asserted in the first place, but others are more proprietary than I, and the difference between surrendering a right and having it taken is not a trivial one.

    The part about links could use more thought.
     
  20. Flying Pig

    Flying Pig Utrinque Paratus

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    Actually, that's a really good point. Seconded.
     

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