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Proposed Policy Change - the Modiquette

Discussion in 'Site Feedback' started by leif erikson, Dec 7, 2012.

  1. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    Probably my english has become poorer, or your understanding of what i said was peculiar. The fact that i did not invent the pcx or nif does not in any way mean i do not own my work which just happens to be adapted or released in that format.

    You then go on to speak of the community, when i, and not you, am the one who shares his works here, and abide by its laws. Namely i accept that i have zero control over what people do in their private modding of my work. However public derivatives are another issue alltogether; why should i be made to "share" my rights there? Just because you say it? Or due to some shadowy good of the community? Most active modders in civIII are artists themselves- due to the old age of the game- many modders of civIV are the same, and to them the request for control over derivatives sounds logical.

    As for code used by me (?) i simply make 3d models. I have no use of code of any kind, and certaintly not of 2k's or Firaxis'. Like i said my work is not only used in civ, since it is 3d it is used in other games as well (eg Total War). Now if you were reffering to the code made by the programmers of Blender, then your argument again has been answered: Blender has an agreement with its community that the works of the artists made with Blender do not in any way belong to the Blender corporation; any other stance would have been suicidal for Blender since then no one would want to use it.

    You are thinking of this issue in purely computer-game terms, and then purely civ terms, and, lastly, purely CFC ones. What if i were a graphical artist making paintings with 3d software? Would Blender own my work? (then i could not ever sell it to anyone, like painters do). Or would some site own it, lets say DeviantArt, just because i had uploaded it there?

    The answer to all that is that simply you missed the point, or altered it for whatever reason. Copyright remains with the original artist, anything else will open a huge can of Cthulic Deepones...
     
  2. deanej

    deanej Deity

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    Blender is, first and foremost, a tool for creating 3d art. Civ is, first and foremost, a game. It's a game that also makes for a great modding platform, but it's primary reason for existence is still to be a game.

    Also, I'm afraid the Internet is rendering traditional notions of intellectual property obsolete. Having grown up in this era, quite frankly, I don't understand why people want to place restrictions on their work. Asking for credit is one thing. Actively restricting how your work can be used is another. Why should other modders be forced to re-invent the wheel? It doesn't make sense. I highly recommend the book "Hackers: Heroes of the Computer Revolution" by Steven Levy. It explains the free software viewpoint in more detail.
     
  3. Padjur

    Padjur Prince

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    Whatever
     
  4. Quinzy

    Quinzy Deity

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    Because as much as it's nice to be friendly and cooperative, you can not and should not make that mandatory.

    As ultimately this site can do what it wants when it comes to mandatory sharing, but all files uploaded prior to the change will need to be kept at the original agreement.
     
  5. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Let us please continue this discussion without insulting and getting personal. :thumbsup:

    Moderator Action: Padjur's signature has been removed. In future, please report the post instead of quoting it and let the staff handle it. Thanks.

    Edit:
    Ok, no problem. :thumbsup:
    (Just thought this might also be handled without staff intervention.)
     
  6. Gary Childress

    Gary Childress Student for and of life

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    I created a poll in the site feedback forum below on this debate. I'm interested in seeing how many people take which side of this debate.
     
  7. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    I actually like his signature, although it is illegal in cfc to do this sort of thing ;)

    Anyway, obviously anyone can make derivatives of my work in their private little mod. The moment it becomes public though they still need permission. It is called respect for the wishes of the creator whose work you chose to use. If you do not like that, then just don't use the work in a public mod :)

    Well, i guess i will have to observe how this new change goes. At worst i just won't upload as much as i used to. At best there will be a clearer understanding, leading to less friction.
    But i am pretty sure nothing will change in the end.
     
  8. Ogedei_the_Mad

    Ogedei_the_Mad Caffeinated Khagan

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    In an ideal world, everyone would be sharing, holding hands, and singing "Kumbayah."

    As much as it'd be nice to have something of that sort, it simply cannot and should not be forced and it's rather paternalistic to consider forcing anyone to get along with everyone. If a modder is too retentive, then just let him/her isolate him/herself and focus on working with some other modder who is more open or accords to your view of things - that would be far more productive than to exacerbate antagonisms for the sake of exacerbating them.
     
  9. Commander Bello

    Commander Bello Say No 2 Net Validations

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    As far as I see it, they don't. Otherwise the moderators could have closed this thread since long, as - except for their attempt to gain control over linked content outside of CFC - nothing would be left for discussion.
     
  10. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    Merry Christmas.

    It is common practice at least up to now to disallow derivatives if the creator asks so. Generally most people do not, but some do. In most cases, again, if asked, people will allow it, unless there is some problem looming.
     
  11. mourndraken

    mourndraken King

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    so if I create an image using paper and paint, it isn't mine because I didn't invent paper or paint ?
     
  12. Monaldinio

    Monaldinio Prince

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    :lol::goodjob:

    Exectly! And if you use a brush, your art is also Not yours because...

    Many rubbish was propagated here, from Pseudo lawers...
    If someone did not study jurisprudence or have
    another law-based education, it is better to talk less about law. Yes of course, Law is interpretable and every lawyers have his own truth... i have recommended not to use the law as an argument. because it leads to nothing in our situation. Sorry for my words, but this Law discussion Must have an end, it would be the best!
    But It is Not enougt to copy and paste some Textes from Wiki...
    otherwise the jurassic study would not take 5 years.
    I do not want to sound arrogant, but there is too much talk about Law from People wich have no practise with Law.
    It is evident that the artist holds all rights on his/her work!
    it does not matter on what medium the artwork was "immortalized", whether paper, digital, or on the cfc website! All rights are always belong to the artist!
    as long as he does not have a contract, by creating art professionally for a company.
    no matter what you always want to Tell us.
    sorry for the rude words. but it's getting more and more impressive as if you do not respect the artist, not the other way around. Ensure art comes from art, nothing comes from nothing. Nevertheless you should be glad that there are people such as kyrios, who only demand there right as payment!
    Please, dont Tell me something about Law, i know most of it better than many of you guys. But Thats Not the Point. What WE Need is a Solution for the Problem, Not a juristic Battle.
    But i think a Solution, everyone's is satisfield, will not happen. one side will have to make concessions. Or Not... and then both sides will have to draw their consequences.
    We are all based on preliminary services ...but thats no Argument for Free using, because you are loged in in CFC Forum, uploadet stuff, have a Thread or just Post a link...
     
  13. kiwitt

    kiwitt Road to War Modder

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    The solution is work within the guidelines of the "modiquette" and stay, or don't and leave.
     
  14. Takhisis

    Takhisis Free Hong Kong

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    up yours!
    But that makes it a norm, not an etiquette.
     
  15. kiwitt

    kiwitt Road to War Modder

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    And if you don't abide by an "etiquette", you get ostracised ... simple really.
     
  16. Takhisis

    Takhisis Free Hong Kong

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    up yours!
    Yes, but there's a difference between ostracism and having to leave.
     
  17. Heretic_Cata

    Heretic_Cata We're gonna live forever

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    I can think of lots of ways to abuse this.
     
  18. ls612

    ls612 Deity Moderator

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    There are lots of ways to abuse any system. And I'm starting to think that this discussion is being helpful in revealing tensions in the modding community that have been ignored for a long while.
     
  19. kiwitt

    kiwitt Road to War Modder

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    What I meant to say was choose to abide or choose to leave.

    It should never be forced.
     
  20. Quintillus

    Quintillus Archiving Civ3 Content Supporter

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    I didn't read everything in the last 15 or so pages. But, I still think that how it was previously worked fine and should not be changed (i.e., perfect is the enemy of good; don't fix what ain't broken). And if there is a change, it should be a clarification of the default situation and not a forced change - that way things can keep working organically as they have so far.

    Thus I voted that yes, modders should be able to add restrictions - but I'm okay with clarifying that the default is that such restrictions do not exist.

    It might be different if there weren't 11 years of having a more flexible, if informal, policy.

    Practically, I don't think there will be a difference in what I post either way. So I probably won't be checking this thread again - if you really want my input, please PM me to alert me to it.

    I'd be okay with this, although I think it gets more wordy than it needs to be by trying to cover too many cases. Maybe cut it down to:

    Since 3rd party rights are (I believe) already at least implicitly required to be respected, and the second paragraph is partially redundant (that the default is default when not otherwise specified) and might contradict the "unless otherwise stated" part. (For example, if I make a map I might say "anyone can use this without asking permission" but be fine with a scenario that uses that map saying "please ask before changing this scenario" even though that isn't what I said for my creation) tl;dr: What's the second paragraph really add?

    I would think so...

    Basically my thinking. Clarifying the default isn't a bad thing. Forcing one policy when there's already 10 years of stuff here... more controversial.

    Glad to see someone noticed what I wrote! I think you also make a good point that the current open-minded spirit is working well, and that there are few cases where sharing isn't allowed.

    I agree with the first quoted sentence. It seems like what happened is there was one sticky case (the Caveman2Cosmos case), and it blew up into trying to make a policy for everyone.

    And it's a good point about Thunderfall's views. Ultimately, the site should run the way Thunderfall wants it to, and he should make the calls for decisions that affect the whole site. If he wants to delegate it, fair enough, but it's not clear who should have that authority for such a broad-reaching policy. I know Thunderfall hasn't been as active recently, so I could certainly understand delegating (and I'd trust if ainwood or Lefty Scaevola were proposing this that it was OK by Thunderfall). But this seems like an initiative of the Civ4 modding community (and perhaps somewhat the Civ5 modding community), when Thunderfall & Co. should likely make the call.

    It's interesting; I don't think there was so much bitterness until this thread came into existence.
     

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