Pros and Cons of EU membership

[Borachio]

Common Agriculture Policy.

About subsidies for European farmers.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Try getting CAP reformed and see how obstructive some EU nations are.

CAP is dead. Look around, this isn't the 90's anymore.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Why would the French want Britain out of the EU, they do well of Britains financial contiibutions?

France contributes more to the EU than Britain does. The old times of the CAP working as a cash machine for France are gone for good.

The EU is not just about Schenghen nor in the Eurozone, but about trade across borders, being allowed to work across borders without visas, how would all those French ppl who live and work in London do if they kicked the UK out of the EU.

I don't need a visa to go to Canada or Norway. They weren't in the EU last time I checked.

We can actually wonder if Switzerland isn't more integrated to Europe than Britain is, considering our Swiss friends are part of Schengen.

Seriously speaking, the membership of the UK in the EU is only about two things:

• contributing to European structural funds benefitting to our friends who haven't been helped by History in the Eastern end of the EU.
• being able to say how wrong the EU is from inside the EU.

So yes. Considering the first point is about paying for others, we can conclude rather decently that the only motive for Britain to stay in the EU is the second point. Now, where things are getting interesting is that, according to recent developments, it seems that further integration won't be decided at the EU level anymore, but most likely at the Euro area level. Cameron disagreed with that move, but he was all alone in that fight.

 

[Quackers]

i'm glad thats the perception of britain inside the EU.
we may now only be a decade behind independence and liberty.

 

[Marla_Singer]

i'm glad thats the perception of britain inside the EU.
we may now only be a decade behind independence and liberty.

Well personally, I would be quite glad as I believe it could give a bit more freedom for Europe to move again. But unfortunately, if there's one thing History taught us, it's that Brits are smart.

Brits have more to lose than the EU in a hypothetical divorce. The UK isn't the kind of country stupid enough to make that kind of wrong choice.

The current merger between BAE systems and EADS is interesting in this regard. It illustrates well how the current UK position, between Europe and the US strategic interests, is complicated. But I'm sure they'll find a solution (for them).

 

[del62]

the CAP working as a cash machine for France are gone for good.

You mean that is what you want the rest of the EU to beleive

I don't need a visa to go to Canada or Norway. They weren't in the EU last time I checked.

If you read what I said I was talking about working in, not visiting, which you would need for Canada.

We can actually wonder if Switzerland isn't more integrated to Europe than Britain is, considering our Swiss friends are part of Schengen.

Shengen is a red herring as it matters little with the UK and Ireland as there are no land crossings into these countries.

Oh and there is the fact that within the UK I don't have to carry any ID, not something I would want to give up for something that would otherwise hardly effect the UK

I doubt whether the Swiss would join the EU, it might seriously effect their ability to hide money from various organisations around the world.

Seriously speaking, the membership of the UK in the EU is only about two things:

• contributing to European structural funds benefitting to our friends who haven't been helped by History in the Eastern end of the EU.
• being able to say how wrong the EU is from inside the EU.

So yes. Considering the first point is about paying for others, we can conclude rather decently that the only motive for Britain to stay in the EU is the second point. Now, where things are getting interesting is that, according to recent developments, it seems that further integration won't be decided at the EU level anymore, but most likely at the Euro area level. Cameron disagreed with that move, but he was all alone in that fight.

I am sure the Franco-German alliance are constantly looking for ways to stich up the UK, I suspect with time other member states will see through this.

 

[Leoreth]

I am sure the Franco-German alliance are constantly looking for ways to stich up the UK, I suspect with time other member states will see through this.

In fact I believe both would be happy to not be tied to the other so much, if Britain were actually a reliable alternative partner.

 

[Farm Boy]

the CAP working as a cash machine for France are gone for good.

You mean that is what you want the rest of the EU to beleive

Thank goodness this same exact conversation happens to somebody else too. Conspiracy theories everywhere, sneaky sneaky goats and wheat and whatnot.

 

[Winner]

Polish foreign minister Radek Sikorski made a speech in Britain recently that every Brit should be aware of. I am quoting the Economist:

Mr Sikorski comes from a background of hawkish British Atlanticism. As a refugee from Communist Poland, he was a notable figure in Oxford in the early 1980s, belonging to the Bulllingdon Club of hard-drinking aristocrats (other members included Boris Johnson, George Osborne and David Cameron). Most people from that milieux are more or less euro-sceptic. But many fear that Britain's posiiton on the sidelines of Europe is becoming unsustainable. Ian Traynor wrote in the Guardian recently:

"Berlin for months has been demanding to reopen the EU treaties to facilitate a big pooling or surrender of – depending on your point of view – national sovereignty to facilitate a federalised eurozone, with what amounts to a core European government of an expanding 17 countries that would take on prerogatives over tax-and-spend powers. Britain is well out of that.Last week the European commission signed up to the German blueprint, while unveiling problematic EU legislation making the European Central Bank the policeman of the eurozone banking sector. Britain will have no part of that, either.On Tuesday the German foreign ministry extended the federalising economic policy-making to foreign and defence, along with 10 other EU foreign ministries carefully chosen to reflect the non-UK EU mainstream – small countries, big countries, single currency members and those outside the euro, core western states and newer east European countries. The likelihood is that the 11-country consensus will swell into a majority among the EU's 27. Britain also stands apart from this. The 11 include Germany and France, the big ones, plus Italy, Spain and Poland – after Britain the biggest EU countries.In short, Britain's isolation becomes more fixed, while the cross-Channel gap widens to become less than bridgeable. More in sorrow than in anger."​

It is in this troubling context that Mr Sikorski made his speech. Poland wants Britain in Europe as a counterweight to the EU's dirigiste, heavy-regulating countries and to balance German weight and Russian proximity. Despite the betrayals of the past (Yalta, Katy&#324 it cherishes Britain's support for Poland's freedom in recent years. But if Britain marginalises itself, Poland will have to make the best of Europe as it is, and as it is shaping up to be. I was once at dinner with Mr Sikorski and a leading British Tory who chided him over Poland's impending membership of the EU (it was 2001). "Why is Poland of all countries selling out to Brussels?" said the Tory. "Do you think we should rely on Britain, like we did in 1939?" came the crisp response.

Though his Tory friends try not to hear it, Mr Sikorski's message is consistently and unashamedly pro-European. He uses words and sentiments that are rarely heard in Britain now (only the Lib Dems are unabashedly europhile, and even they tend to keep quiet about it). He told his audience at Blenheim Palace. "I believe in the logic and justice of the modern European project. And my country, Poland, will do its utmost to help it succeed."

He pointed out that half of Britain's exports go to the EU, that the much-maligned European Convention on Human Rights is nothing to do with the EU (and also a British creation); that the cost to Britain of EU membership is trivial (£15 per person per year by his calculation, against £1,500-£3,500 in benefits from the single market), that the European Commission's 33,000 staff is tiny by comparison to any national bureaucracy; that EU rules are not "Brussels diktats" but proposed, and agreed, by the member states; that only one-sixteenth of UK primary legislation stems from EU decisions; and, perhaps most importantly, that the EU is a hugely important force in keeping markets open and competitive. He didn't mention its current assault on Gazprom.

He attacked the two options favoured by British Eurosceptics. A negotiated free trade zone would not be a simple replacement for full membership, he warned:

"Don’t count on it. Many European states would hold a grudge against a country which, in their view, had selfishly left the EU. While you are an important market for the rest of the EU, accounting for about 11% of the rest of the EU’s trade, your trade with the EU is 50% of your total trade. No prizes for guessing who would have the upper hand in such a negotiation. Any free trade agreement would have a price. In exchange for the privilege of access to the Single Market, Norway and Switzerland make major contributions to the EU’s cohesion funds. They also have to adopt EU standards – without having any say in how they are written. At the moment, Norway’s net contribution to the EU budget is actually higher, per capita, than Britain’s. So think hard: the EU is a market of 500 million people who enjoy the highest average standard of living in the world. According to the IMF and the World Bank, Europe’s GDP is about 2.5 times than that of China and nine times that of India. Do you want to lose your privileged access to that market?"​

He also attacked the more explicit eurosceptic notion, that Britain would regain its international clout outside the EU. To that he said:

"Yes, the UK outside the EU would have more freedom of manoeuvre, in a number of significant respects. But the UK would be less powerful and less free. Certainly Britain would lose its influence in many international forums. By negotiating as one bloc in world trade talks, the European Union gives all of us, the UK included, a powerful and united voice to use when speaking to China and the USA. If you leave, you lose that. Let me quote from the findings of a report prepared in 2011 for Business, Innovation and Skills Committee in the House of Commons , I quote ‘We recognize the fact that the UK's influence on the WTO can only be exercised through its membership of the European Union’.Britain standing alone would suffer not only on multilateral level. Are you sure that you will command the same kind of attention in, say, Kuala Lumpur, Lagos and Bogota? What about Washington? At the moment, your hosts know that you speak on behalf of London and have an influence to shape decisions taken in Brussels on behalf of the whole continent as well. Alone, you won’t be so interesting.

The EU is an English-speaking power. The Single Market was a British idea. A British commissioner runs our diplomatic service. You could, if only you wished, lead Europe’s defence policy. But if you refuse, please don’t expect us to help you wreck or paralyze the EU. Do not underestimate our determination not to return to the politics of the 20 century. You were not occupied. Most of us on the continent were. We will do almost anything to prevent that from happening again.It's not difficult to see why. Poland wants to be with Germany and France as partners, leading a strong, democratic European political-economic space. We do not want to be a buffer between Western Europe and a less democratic Eurasian political-economic space dominated by Russia.More importantly, we believe the Eurozone will survive, because it is its members interest for it to survive. The leaders of Europe will step up operational integration at the European level. The new institutional arrangements within the EU will be different. But eventually they’ll be strong. They'll work because Europe’s leaders want them to work. And be careful what you read in your tabloids: No country has benefitted more from the single currency than Germany."​

And concluded:

"Since I first came to these shores over 30 years ago, Britain has become much more European. You’ve built the Channel-Tunnel, you got used to mixer taps, duvets and double glazing. Even your cooking has improved. Yet, your public opinion and politics is more Eurosceptic than ever. And I think I can guess why: Marxists at those Balliol tutorials [one-on-one teaching sessions at Oxford colleges: Mr Sikorski was at Pembroke Collegue but had tutorials in some subjects at Balliol] taught me the term “false consciousness” which is when the ideological superstructure is out of sync with the economic base. Britain today is living with false consciousness. Your interests are in Europe. It’s high time for your sentiments to follow. Your leaders need to make a more vocal case for your European interests. Britain is famous through the ages for its practical good sense and policies based on reality, not myths. We hope you can return to this tradition soon."​

Amen to that.

 

[JohannaK]

Amen.

 

[Oruc]

Polish foreign minister Radek Sikorski made a speech in Britain recently that every Brit should be aware of. I am quoting the Economist:



Amen to that.

They think threatening us will win us over? This just proves we need to disentangle ourselves from EU.

 

[Winner]

They think threatening us will win us over? This just proves we need to disentangle ourselves from EU.

He's not threatening you, he's warning you as a friend who clearly wants Britain in Europe, probably more than anybody else.

If you can't see that and instead go straight for a knee-jerk paranoid response, you should perhaps start working on improving your personality.

 

[Quackers]

These puny eastern european countries may want to attach themselves to the Franco-Germanic beast and pretend they are a part of serious power (they feel upset at being nothing-nations for millenia). Britain doesn't want that. Britain wants to be a big Switzerland.

 

[lovett]

An incisive refutation of Mr. Sikorksi's arguments.

 

[Winner]

These puny eastern european countries may want to attach themselves to the Franco-Germanic beast and pretend they are a part of serious power (they feel upset at being nothing-nations for millenia). Britain doesn't want that. Britain wants to be a big Switzerland.

And my cousin's 4-year old son wants to be an astronaut. Your point is...?

Thanks for making it crystal clear neither of Sikorski's arguments made it into your brain's higher thinking processes centres, BTW. And that you have no clue about European history.

 

[Quackers]

I don't want to embarrass Mr Sik I'm not in the habit of writing essays either. I know what I like and i know propagandists when i see them.

 

[Lillefix]

Britain doesn't want that. Britain wants to be a big Switzerland.

So you want to EU legislation to be forced upon Britain, without it having a say in the making this legislation? I imagine the French would support this as well.

 

[JohannaK]

Most would support this. I view Britain is Europe as a blocker, as somebody said some posts ago.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

They think threatening us will win us over? This just proves we need to disentangle ourselves from EU.

'Don't piss of your largest export market or it might have negative consequences' does not constitute a threat any more than 'don't eat that or it will come back out in less than a minute'.

These puny eastern european countries may want to attach themselves to the Franco-Germanic beast and pretend they are a part of serious power (they feel upset at being nothing-nations for millenia). Britain doesn't want that. Britain wants to be a big Switzerland.

I wonder how independent the UK will be next time the USA need you to do something.

I don't want to embarrass Mr Sik I'm not in the habit of writing essays either. I know what I like and i know propagandists when i see them.

Said the UKIP supporter.

 

[Quackers]

Sounds like a threat to me GS. It's like a gangsta saying to a shopkeeper - we will keep you safe, but you have to pay us £200/day oh and you have no choice in the matter. It's extortion. But fine if thats the best the pro-eu side can do, to rely on threats then i think we have a good idea of what kind of people we are dealing with.