Pros and Cons of EU membership

[Farm Boy]

It the common agricultural policy, designed to keep farmers rich, french ones specifically, but others don't do badly out of it.

That's...pretty generous. Seems like a protection against American agricultural importation, truth be told.

 

[warpus]

You forgot that the pro of living standard and infrastructure improvements leads to the con of a debt death spiral. But what the hey, if it is good enough for Greece, why not the rest of you.

Poland gets highways, Greece gets riots.

The EU has been a huge step forward for Poland. Without it I'm sure we wouldn't have seen 80%+ of the infrastructure projects in the country that were/are in such a bad need of upgrade..

I'm biased and I fully admit it, but I do acknowledge the cons of EU-ity

 

[Winner]

I don't really disagree with this argument, but I can't hear it anymore, and I think it's emphasized too much. If it's the only reason to keep together, I don't really think I could support it anymore. The EU can't be just an association of countries that dislike or distrust each other but force themselves to work with the rest out of power calculations.

And that is not what I am arguing for. My connection to Europe is, when it comes down to it, emotional. I believe Europe is a unique civilization, extremely rich, diverse, multi-faceted, colourful, and yet united through values shared across the continent.

However, I can't really use this as the 'ultimate' argument why the EU is a good thing, now, can I? Not many people are willing to confess their euro-optimism these days and those who do are laughed at by cynics and nationalists. What I am saying here is thus a completely emotionless, yet compelling argument for the European integration that even people completely devoid of any romantic notions of 'Europeaness' can understand.

But why do you want to be big and influential?

China is huge and mighty, Switzerland is small and irrelevant. Where would you rather live? Hell, even a rabid chinese nationalist ought to prefer Switzerland...

I think the EU is great in many regards (and as a tourist I love the Euro and curse the sterling and swiss franc), but I don't see the appeal of a super-state. I am from a huge federal state and I can say no good comes out of it.

Switzerland success is dependant on stable, peaceful, and prosperous Europe. Which means the EU, really. The same goes for Norway, Iceland, Monaco, Andorra, and other countries in Europe.

You might argue that small, "neutral" countries in good neighbourhoods fare better in terms of living standards than large, federal nation states or blocs of countries, and you might be right. But they can not influence the big decisions shaping the fate of this world. They hide in the shadow of benevolent giants and hope these giants will protect their interests for them.

But Europe is too big to hide in anybody's shadow. Western Europe could during the Cold War, but those times are long over. Europe is also too unique to resign on trying to make the world be more like it wishes it to be. The Americans are clearly sick of propping Europe up, and in any case their interests and our interest, their values and our values, are no longer perfectly matched. Europe represents a different model of society, more social, more sustainable, more diplomatic, more environmental, and if we want to protect and promote it, we need to have the strength to do so.

Just recently, the EU made China to agree to set up a similar carbon-permits scheme as we use here in Europe. Would any singular EU member negotiating on its own be able to do that? You know the answer.

Poland gets highways, Greece gets riots.

The EU has been a huge step forward for Poland. Without it I'm sure we wouldn't have seen 80%+ of the infrastructure projects in the country that were/are in such a bad need of upgrade..

Yes. EU development/social funds really help A LOT to improve the economic performance and living standards in Europe's poorer regions. They represent one of the strengths of the EU - effective redistribution which in the end benefits those who pay as well as those who receive.

 

[JohannaK]

I believe that the key for Europe to survive this crisis is more Europe.

 

[really]

You don't have to join the Eurozone if you join the EU. So that's not an argument against the EU itself.

Not true - the only members who don't have to join the Euro are those that were members at the time of negotiation and got an opt-out.

All new members must join*

(*subject to meeting the convergence criteria - in reality any country could stay out as long as it wants)

Positives:
A common currency is very good for trade and tourism.
Visa free travel, living and working.
Harmonised sales tax laws.
Bologna process is making qualifications transparent.
Environmental laws being forced on us here in Ireland is a good thing - they probably wouldn't have been passed otherwise.
Infrastructual development
Markets for our agricultural products
Influence and access to leaders that a small country wouldn't have otherwise.
Various social laws

Negatives?
Having to open our fisheries to others
Having to adopt laws we don't necessarily like
Having to adapt our taxes
Not having control of our own currency
Unequal application of laws across the EU

Edit:

However, I can't really use this as the 'ultimate' argument why the EU is a good thing, now, can I? Not many people are willing to confess their euro-optimism these days and those who do are laughed at by cynics and nationalists.

I have become more and more positive about the EU since the various crises. We are stronger together than apart.
Our economic mess here in Ireland was our own doing but we would have gone to the wall long ago without EU support.

 

[Leoreth]

Not true - the only members who don't have to join the Euro are those that were members at the time of negotiation and got an opt-out.

All new members must join*

(*subject to meeting the convergence criteria - in reality any country could stay out as long as it wants)

That's what I meant. It's not hard to intentionally fail the convergence criteria. And I'm sure even new members could negotiate an opt-out if they really wanted to.

 

[Borachio]

I'm not sure about this. I can't figure it out from what I can find out from the Copenhagen criteria (ostensibly about joining the EU) and the Maastricht criteria (about the Eurozone). Have you got any link to a source showing whether the two are (still) separate?

 

[hobbsyoyo]

You could always leave. The EU isn't the Soviet Union; there's no reason to stay while our power, prestige and living standards rise as we integrate, if you don't want to

Are their mechanisms for a country to exit the EU? I know there isn't one for a country to leave the Eurozone. I dunno, this kind of sounds like the succession dilemma we faced last century over whether it was legal to do so. Please guys, don't repeat that mistake...

Actually, the whole EU reminds me a lot of the early US. We struggled to integrate and even had financial crisises that remind me of the Eurozone crisis.

You guys will pull through and be a stronger, more integrated continent. And when you all learn to throw your weight around as a single entity, you'll be a superpower.

I am merely stating the facts. No single European nation state can stand up to the likes of the US, China, or Russia and deal with them on equal-to-equal basis. Europe as a whole can. If people of Europe want to have a say in how this planet is run, and I believe they do, they have to stick together, no matter what.

I as any man can waste my time arguing over details concerning how this unification is to be accomplished so that we don't sacrifice too much of what makes us diverse, but we shouldn't lose sight of this imperative.

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

 

[Winner]

That's what I meant. It's not hard to intentionally fail the convergence criteria. And I'm sure even new members could negotiate an opt-out if they really wanted to.

Czechia is one of the more Euro (currency) sceptic countries, but even here nobody is seriously considering negotiating an opt-out. The mainstream thinking is "we'll adopt it when it's most profitable to us". In practice this means waiting until Poland makes a real progress in this regard, getting scared, and then frenetically trying to meet the criteria to avoid becoming the only central European country not using the Euro.

 

[Aleksey_aka_al]

...the only east Eurozone country not using...

Corrected.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

Are their mechanisms for a country to exit the EU?

There wasn't until the Lisbon treaty, but as of 2009 it's possible to officially leave the EU.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

There wasn't until the Lisbon treaty, but as of 2009 it's possible to officially leave the EU.

Ok, thanks for the clarification!

 

[JohnRM]

I often hear many points for and against membership of the European Union but I'm curious about others opinions on the matter. What do you believe are some positive and negative aspects of the EU? I'm currently neutral on whether my own country Britain should remain or leave.

The only reasonable argument against membership in the EU is that some members still have one foot out the door. If the EU was truly united and working for the common good, there'd be no reasonable argument against membership, at all.

 

[TheLastOne36]

Czechia is one of the more Euro (currency) sceptic countries, but even here nobody is seriously considering negotiating an opt-out. The mainstream thinking is "we'll adopt it when it's most profitable to us". In practice this means waiting until Poland makes a real progress in this regard, getting scared, and then frenetically trying to meet the criteria to avoid becoming the only central European country not using the Euro.

Speaking of... what is the latest news with Poland adopting the Euro? I'm out of the loop in Canada. Last I heard we wanted to adopt it in 2014 or 2016 or something.

I'm still skeptical if Poland should adopt it at all. I mean we probably should some day when it becomes profitable to do so like you said, but for now the Zloty does us well. And correct me if I am wrong but it's the same story with the Korona.

 

[Winner]

Speaking of... what is the latest news with Poland adopting the Euro? I'm out of the loop in Canada. Last I heard we wanted to adopt it in 2014 or 2016 or something.

Haven't been following it in much detail, but Poland under this government has entered the inner circle of European integration. They are trying to accelerate the process as much as possible because they feel not being a member keeps them on the sidelines in the crucial matter Europe deals with these days.

I'm still skeptical if Poland should adopt it at all. I mean we probably should some day when it becomes profitable to do so like you said, but for now the Zloty does us well. And correct me if I am wrong but it's the same story with the Korona.

In fact, the Czech Rep. should adopt it sooner than Poland, if trade was the only decision criterion. We do most of our trade with the Eurozone, and currency shifts damage our exporters as well as scare off some investors, who now go to Slovakia instead (which has adopted Euro a few years ago). The argument against is that naturally strengthening koruna in fact improves the purchasing power of Czech people, and that if we adopted Euro too fast, we might end up in the same spiral of death as Greece (where increasing salaries is the only way of improving the living standard of the citizens).

Poland is a larger market and it's not as dependant on inter-European trade as we are. It can bide its time. But it won't, because Eurozone membership is first and foremost a *political* thing. Since the Eurozone now represents something of a "core" of the EU, and Poland wants to be a part of it, I think it will speed up preparations for the Euro adoption.

And when it does, we will too, because we're too cowardly to stand alone, and Klaus will GTFO of office next year

 

[innonimatu]

Some other pros:
- Since Norway hasn't joined yet, it looks like there is a penis on all EU issued money

The problem of flaccid Sweden was fixed back in 2008, when the euro symbolically annexed Norway on its maps.

If we actually hold the City of London accountable to our laws and prosecute bankers for breaking laws and regulations, then they'll move their business to somewhere where they won't be held accountable for their actions and we'll lose the money we get from them.
If we increase taxes on those who earn huge amounts of money, they'll move somewhere where rates are lower.
If we refuse to hand billions of taxpayers money over to failed banks, investors will move their money to the countries that are willing to socialise private losses.

The division of Europe's economy is allowing the richest people in the world to play both sides against the middle. It's a race to the bottom. And this problem is only going to become more important as time goes on.

You got things wrong. It's not the division that allows that game, it is the "union". A divided Europe would have had its national banks go bankrupt, its exploiting elites overthrown for their failures. It would not have had multinationals in position of influence because each sovereign state would have placed barriers to their entrance. A "united" Europe has the local elites covering for each other, obfuscating what they're doing, sowing apathy among the plebs by making them believe they're such small pieces that they are impotent to even make any political demand.

The simple fact is, that the market polarises wealth. And the unprecedented breakneck pace of globalisation and technological progress are acting as multipliers to that trend.
[...]
Only a united Europe has the power to deal with these issues by imposing taxes and regulations on the hyper-rich and the banks, corporations and other tools that they use to advance themselves. A balkanised Europe such as we have now, where nation states fall over themselves to offer the most convenient means for the hyper-rich to advance themselves in the hopes that the handful of money they toss in the air will fall to THEM and not the other guy next door can never hope to address the growing issue of inequality and give normal, working people a hope for the future.

Together we stand, divided we fall.

Globalization was brought about by fallacious appeals to a need for "union", for standardization, for "high-level" treaties. It is the "union" that empowers markets above any democratic political controls: for what change do small groups of people stand of succeeding with political demands in the big states? And in the "unions" of states where, they are led to believe, politics is for the technicians, for the professional diplomats and economists only?

Divided we would have remained standing, each for its own interests, in a world without a "global market" like the one now supposedly placed above the sovereign states. Together we have fallen to the level of abject servants of nebulous interests no one seems to be able to explain, but everyone believes must be defended...

"Globalization" was the biggest con of the last century. The EU is part of that con.

Poland gets highways, Greece gets riots.

The EU has been a huge step forward for Poland. Without it I'm sure we wouldn't have seen 80%+ of the infrastructure projects in the country that were/are in such a bad need of upgrade.

Just wait a decade or so more for the real cost of all that to kick in. Believe me, it will. Unless you lucky bastards get to be freed by a collapse of the EU in the meanwhile.

There wasn't until the Lisbon treaty, but as of 2009 it's possible to officially leave the EU.

The EU was and is just a set of treaties between sovereign states. Any state leaving merely has to denounce said treaties. It's bad form not to give prior warning per what some treaties specify but it can be done anytime, without having to follow any official (treaty) exit clauses.

 

[Marla_Singer]

French people want Britain out of the EU.
This is, in itself, the main reason why Britain stays in.

But frankly Britain's membership in the EU is an empty shell: they are neither in Schenghen nor in the Eurozone, and they don't want to be part of any of both in the future.

 

[Quackers]

I'm going to put a bomb under the Strasbourg and Brussel's parliament. I'll be considered a hero by British patroits and Europeans for centuries...

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Is it that bad Quackers?

 

[Borachio]

Is it true that, for any particular Brussels regulation, the Germans implement it and love it, the French ignore it, and the British implement it and hate it?