Pros and Cons of EU membership

[Oruc]

"Don’t count on it. Many European states would hold a grudge against a country which, in their view, had selfishly left the EU. While you are an important market for the rest of the EU, accounting for about 11% of the rest of the EU’s trade, your trade with the EU is 50% of your total trade. No prizes for guessing who would have the upper hand in such a negotiation. Any free trade agreement would have a price. In exchange for the privilege of access to the Single Market, Norway and Switzerland make major contributions to the EU’s cohesion funds. They also have to adopt EU standards – without having any say in how they are written. At the moment, Norway’s net contribution to the EU budget is actually higher, per capita, than Britain’s. So think hard: the EU is a market of 500 million people who enjoy the highest average standard of living in the world. According to the IMF and the World Bank, Europe’s GDP is about 2.5 times than that of China and nine times that of India. Do you want to lose your privileged access to that market?"

The threat is right here.

He's not threatening you, he's warning you as a friend who clearly wants Britain in Europe, probably more than anybody else.

To what end? The only reason you can give is power and influence, why seek power unless you seek to use it and what do you intend to use it for?
We've been here before, British blood spent across the world to make those at the top rich.

If you can't see that and instead go straight for a knee-jerk paranoid response, you should perhaps start working on improving your personality.

Right, you find someone who disagrees with you and they must have something wrong with them. Is this the future EU stance on those that dislike the EU.

 

[Winner]

Sounds like a threat to me GS. It's like a gangsta saying to a shopkeeper - we will keep you safe, but you have to pay us £200/day oh and you have no choice in the matter. It's extortion. But fine if thats the best the pro-eu side can do, to rely on threats then i think we have a good idea of what kind of people we are dealing with.

No, it's more akin to a guy telling you that if you jump off a cliff, you're likely to severely injure yourself.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

Sounds like a threat to me GS. It's like a gangsta saying to a shopkeeper - we will keep you safe, but you have to pay us £200/day oh and you have no choice in the matter.

It's more like 'don't leave the club or we'll stop giving you £200/day.'
And I'm not really with the pro-EU crowd as far as the UK's membership is concerned.

 

[Oruc]

I wonder how independent the UK will be next time the USA need you to do something.

Well according to mr Sikorski, if we distance ourselves from the EU they wont find us so interesting. This is sounding better and better.

 

[Winner]

Right, you find someone who disagrees with you and they must have something wrong with them. Is this the future EU stance on those that dislike the EU.

If you're obviously unable to give a decent reasoned response to Sikorski's arguments and instead accuse him of threatening Britain (your words) or dismiss the arguments because he's a foreigner* (=Quackers), why should I respect your opinion?

(* much better educated, much more experienced, and probably much more "British" than his resident detractors)

 

[Farm Boy]

Well according to mr Sikorski, if we distance ourselves from the EU they wont find us so interesting. This is sounding better and better.

Given the interest over here in a specific pair of relatively common pieces of female anatomy I think that's wishful thinking on your part!

 

[Quackers]

i weep for europe. it's a great place, plenty of nice countries and great holidays. it's just that this imperialist elite have gotten into power and they seem hell bent on turning our peaceful continent into some sort of hellraising superpower. they want blood and they want to challenge america and china. unfortunately they have fooled quite a lot of europeans on the way who now happily speak for the EU. if it wasn't for countries like britain the EU would have morphed into a superstate by now. and who knows would it be fighting in the middle east? figting russia? with these kind of power hungry idiots it's hard to predict the future. but now britain needs to leave, it can't keep on pulling back the euro train on it's path to war - britain needs to find it's own way.

 

[Oruc]

If you're obviously unable to give a decent reasoned response to Sikorski's arguments and instead accuse him of threatening Britain (your words) or dismiss the arguments because he's a foreigner* (=Quackers), why should I respect your opinion?

(* much better educated, much more experienced, and probably much more "British" than his resident detractors)

If you only want responses from the "elite" then don't come here son, If you only want people to pat you on the back, don't come here.
I don't expect someone who I will never meet to respect my opinion. But It's obvious your sense of self-worth is tied up in this, at least I don't have that crutch.

 

[JohannaK]

i weep for europe. it's a great place, plenty of nice countries and great holidays. it's just that this imperialist elite have gotten into power and they seem hell bent on turning our peaceful continent into some sort of hellraising superpower. they want blood and they want to challenge america and china. unfortunately they have fooled quite a lot of europeans on the way who now happily speak for the EU. if it wasn't for countries like britain the EU would have morphed into a superstate by now. and who knows would it be fighting in the middle east? figting russia? with these kind of power hungry idiots it's hard to predict the future. but now britain needs to leave, it can't keep on pulling back the euro train on it's path to war - britain needs to find it's own way.

Wut.

 

[bhsup]

If you only want responses from the "elite" then don't come here son, If you only want people to pat you on the back, don't come here.
I don't expect someone who I will never meet to respect my opinion. But It's obvious your sense of self-worth is tied up in this, at least I don't have that crutch.

Charlie Daniels approves of this post!
(Now you intellectuals may not like it but there ain't nothin? that you can do, 'cause there's a whole lot more of us common folks than there ever will be of you.)

Just remember, UK, we'll be here when you tire of your romance with Europe.

 

[Oruc]

Wut.

The only reason Winner ever gives for the EU is power and influence on the world stage, well what does he want to do with? Look at what most countries do with power and influence

Charlie Daniels approves of this post!
(Now you intellectuals may not like it but there ain't nothin? that you can do, 'cause there's a whole lot more of us common folks than there ever will be of you.)

Just remember, UK, we'll be here when you tire of your romance with Europe.

I like USA, I like your constitution (well what I know of it anyway), but our friendship always seems to hinge on our helping you fight wars

 

[Winner]

The only reason Winner ever gives for the EU is power and influence on the world stage, well what does he want to do with? Look at what most countries do with power and influence

Seriously, I've probably given about a million other reasons why EU/European integration is a good thing on this forum over the time I've been here.

As for this one, I clearly said what I want it to do with its power and influence.

 

[classical_hero]

CAP is dead. Look around, this isn't the 90's anymore.

It is still more than a 1'3rd of the EU budget, so that is not something that is small. Getting rid of it totally and removing corn subsidies will work wonders for food production around the world.

 

[del62]

The UK wont leave the EU, nor will it join the single currency

Much to the disappointment of those of you in Europe who want the UK out or UKIP suppoters, leaving the EU is simply not in the UK's interests.

However the EU does need to find a way to disentagle some states from the euro while still remaining part of the EU as the current attepts to prop up states (that should never have been part of the single currency in the first place) will continue to cost more and more.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I like USA, I like your constitution (well what I know of it anyway), but our friendship always seems to hinge on our helping you fight wars

Nah bro, we've had your back since WWI. It works both ways.

 

[Farm Boy]

It is still more than a 1'3rd of the EU budget, so that is not something that is small. Getting rid of it totally and removing corn subsidies will work wonders for food production around the world.

You've never managed to respond in detail at all regarding how you think those programs work in the food/fuel thread. I would find your determination on this particular issue a little less off-putting if you would take the time to demonstrate any sort of nuanced understanding other than "subsidies bad!" Why are they bad? What undesirable effects do they have, and what desirable effects do they have? Why is one set of effects better or worse than the other?

 

[Leoreth]

Polish foreign minister Radek Sikorski made a speech in Britain recently that every Brit should be aware of. I am quoting the Economist:

Amen to that.

Great article. I wonder if our British friends that have reacted so far have even read this, because so far everyone of their arguments has been anticipated and refuted by Sikorski.

And I'm really happy to see what a constructive role Poland has taken since the Tusk government has come to power. They can't integrate into the EU quickly enough.

They think threatening us will win us over? This just proves we need to disentangle ourselves from EU.

I don't get you eurosceptics. You want to separate from the Union, and if someone points of the consequences of this decision, he's threatening you?

These puny eastern european countries may want to attach themselves to the Franco-Germanic beast and pretend they are a part of serious power (they feel upset at being nothing-nations for millenia).

Your national posturing is ridiculous, and probably exacerbated by the realization that the times of British grandeur are long over as well. Projection much?

Britain doesn't want that. Britain wants to be a big Switzerland.

The problem is ... even small Switzerland can't be Switzerland. Or in Mr. Sikorski's words: *drumroll*

Any free trade agreement would have a price. In exchange for the privilege of access to the Single Market, Norway and Switzerland make major contributions to the EU’s cohesion funds. They also have to adopt EU standards – without having any say in how they are written. At the moment, Norway’s net contribution to the EU budget is actually higher, per capita, than Britain’s.

Britains problem is that it doesn't want to commit to anything, yet have a say in everything, if only to prevent consensus, and then acts offended if nobody wants it as a partner anymore.

I don't want to embarrass Mr Sik I'm not in the habit of writing essays either. I know what I like and i know propagandists when i see them.

Then why do you parrot their talking points?

 

[Leoreth]

However the EU does need to find a way to disentagle some states from the euro while still remaining part of the EU as the current attepts to prop up states (that should never have been part of the single currency in the first place) will continue to cost more and more.

Not wanting to commit yourself is one thing, but why should other countries still value the membership of a country which actively works to impede further integration? For no rational reason, but out of pure spite?

 

[del62]

It's more like 'don't leave the club or we'll stop giving you £200/day.'
And I'm not really with the pro-EU crowd as far as the UK's membership is concerned.

Thats strange because the UK is a net contributor to the EU.

Interestingly in 2010 only Malta got less per person in agricultuaral spending from the EU.

In 2010 only one country made a greater net percentage of GDP than the UK, things may have changed on this with the eurozone bailout for eurozone countries, but the rest of europe would lose a lot of cash if they kicked the UK out.

 

[Winner]

Not wanting to commit yourself is one thing, but why should other countries still value the membership of a country which actively works to impede further integration? For no rational reason, but out of pure spite?

It's pretty funny how stubborn insistence on the old "divide and block" policy in the Continent has left Britain almost completely isolated*. Talk about failing to adapt to new circumstances...

(* except for some deluded Czech right wingers who are about to lose the last remnants of their power once Klaus is out of office next year)