Punching Nazis

[Lexicus]

If you can demonstrate that an atrocity from the year 1150 has had a material impact on the lives of people today then I'm all for reparations.

I think comparisons with medieval Europe sort of miss the point. Atrocities in 1150 do have a material effect of people today, clearly...but comparison between this kind of thing and the situation wrt slavery and reparations in the US is unwarranted for other reasons.

 

[stinkubus]

Ok, here's the source of at least one misunderstanding. I'm not declaring you, or any other individual, guilty of anything. Sometimes, WE, as in society, owe a debt to others for things we had no direct control over.

I don't begrudge that that Japanese-Americans who were sent to internment camps during WWII got paid, and God willing I will live to see the day the US actually makes an effort to set things right with its black and native populations. I didn't personally participate in the atrocities, but I live in a world where I most certainly benefit from the fact they happened. I don't mind kicking in a few pennies to set things straight.

 

[Lexicus]

I'm sure it made them exactly as bad as the japanese, who were testing weapons on prisoners of war (which meant weeks of agony until death), raping and slaughtering civilians by the hundred of thousands, working people to death and so on.

Funny, where has gone the outrage about false moral equivalency that tend to suddendly sprout up as soon as anti-fa and fascists are spoken about ?

And to be clear, I'm not trying to claim some sort of moral equivalency between the Axis and Allies - I think it's excellent that the Allies won and we are better off now than we would be had the other side won

So you don't think modern day descendants of those who committed atrocities have an obligation to make things right?

"Can't we let go of the past?" asked the white man, perched atop the pile of corpses and the pile of gold stolen by his ancestors. The key point is the ongoing benefits derived by white people from the atrocities of the past. Anyone who doesn't agree that these benefits demonstrably exist is kidding themselves.

 

[Akka]

Ok, here's the source of at least one misunderstanding. I'm not declaring you, or any other individual, guilty of anything. Sometimes, WE, as in society, owe a debt to others for things we had no direct control over.

I don't begrudge that that Japanese-Americans who were sent to internment camps during WWII got paid, and God willing I will live to see the day the US actually makes an effort to set things right with its black and native populations. I didn't personally participate in the atrocities, but I live in a world where I most certainly benefit from the fact they happened. I don't mind kicking in a few pennies to set things straight.

I'm waiting for Mongolia to pay reparation to the entire Eurasian continent. Also Japan to pay reparation to the entire Far East.
Oh, the whole Arabian world should pay reparation to Berbers, Greeks, Spanish, French and Italians too.
But then France should pay the Maghreb reparation for colonialism.
That is, after the Maghreb pay reparation for piracy and slavery raids.
Don't forget that Iran need to pay Egypt and Greece. And Greece pay back to Iran too. Kind of back-and-forth.
The Roman payments will be a bit more tricky, but somewhere Ukraine will have to pay for Attila. Unless it's Russia. Or Romania. Or all of them.
Oh, don't forget that Kenya will have to pay the rest of the world too.

 

[Lexicus]

I'm waiting for Mongolia to pay reparation to the entire Eurasian continent

Yes, the people of Mongolia have done so well for themselves as a result of Genghis Khan's imperial project.

 

[bernie14]

I agree 100%, and now we are starting to get somewhere. What do you suppose should be done about this going foward?

So you don't think modern day descendants of those who committed atrocities have an obligation to make things right?

If you can demonstrate that an atrocity from the year 1150 has had a material impact on the lives of people today then I'm all for reparations.

Ok, here's the source of at least one misunderstanding. I'm not declaring you, or any other individual, guilty of anything. Sometimes, WE, as in society, owe a debt to others for things we had no direct control over.

I don't begrudge that that Japanese-Americans who were sent to internment camps during WWII got paid, and God willing I will live to see the day the US actually makes an effort to set things right with its black and native populations. I didn't personally participate in the atrocities, but I live in a world where I most certainly benefit from the fact they happened. I don't mind kicking in a few pennies to set things straight.

 

[Akka]

Yes, the people of Mongolia have done so well for themselves as a result of Genghis Khan's imperial project.

So what ? They certainly hampered a lot all the regions they invaded and profited massively from it at the time. Fits the bill.

 

[inthesomeday]

Akka has a point.

Us SJW pinkos really ought to focus more energy on the real threat here, global Mongolian supremacism.

 

[Senethro]

What worries me more is that its an argument against any reparations and prosecuting any war crimes. Its not a courageous moral position.

 

[Archon_Wing]

What worries me more is that its an argument against any reparations and prosecuting any war crimes. Its not a courageous moral position.

War crimes are diffrent. You hold individuals responsible for them.

 

[Lexicus]

@Lexicus - claiming to be either a liberal or a moderate is an oft used tool of reactionary right wingers.

Good example here

So what ? They certainly hampered a lot all the regions they invaded and profited massively from it at the time. Fits the bill.

"At the time" is the key phrase that means it absolutely does not "fit the bill" as a comparison with, say, reparations for slavery.

 

[Arwon]

Actually, yes, i would be far more sympathetic if he had went for a punch without potential lethal result, so (i suppose?) to the stomach?
A punch to the head CAN kill. It also can cause severe trauma. A punch to the stomach likely won't have lasting effects, unless you are The Hulk.

The far better thing to do would be to just tarnish him with words, and then upload the video. But a punch to the face was among the worst outcome, and i suppose the person giving it is liable to be charged and be brought to court (let alone any neo-nazi reprisal...).

I'm curious if this extends to, say, condemning a woman pepper spraying someone who is sexually harassing her in the street. Or a gay man who hits someone shouting homophobic abuse and threats at him for showing affection with his partner in public.

If not, what makes those illegal but acceptable responses to mere speech different to responses to somebody getting clocked by a visible minority after they've been walking around the streets yelling nazi abuse at people.

 

[Akka]

"At the time" is the key phrase that means it absolutely does not "fit the bill" as a comparison with, say, reparations for slavery.

150 years isn't "at the time" for you ?
Okay, I'm waiting for Turkey's paying reparation for Greece, Japan paying reparation for the whole Far East and Russia paying reparation for Korea.

 

[inthesomeday]

Akka slavery is still here

Edit: so is Japanese economic imperialism in EA and Russian political/economic imperialism in Korea, tbf. So yeah those things should be destroyed as well.

Do you think that arguing for the destruction of modern power structures is like bad or something?

 

[Archon_Wing]

Ahem.

The reason why I disliked the Ww2 analogy is that the Allies did not fight the Nazis just because they were Nazis. If Germany didn't invade Poland, it is likely the Allies would just watch the Germans carry out genocide (and they really did in a number of cases). And for the most part they didn't care about selling Poland out. Note it was just before the war that "Peace in our time" was a thing so....

So we delve into the tangent that the US wasn't entering the war with the most noble of motives, and clearly they were the most evil nation (Despite W Europe being the home of the World's worst ideologies that spawned 2 World Wars and one cold one-- Maybe Europe should pay America repatriations for inventing this imperialism fad and sending it over.) and while true to some extent, just makes my point stronger. If your view is that the Allies were merely just a bunch of imperalist powers out to stake out an agenda, what does it say about you, if you're just taking their lead? That it wasn't just about the virtue of punching Nazis. And this is considering that World War 2 is considered the most morally acceptable war to fight-- but of course many forget about how horrific it was.

After all, references to Ww2, and appease against Nazis (and thus violence is the best solution) is one of the favorite tenets of neocon policy in the United States. So how many people would actually like to participate in invading North Korea?

And besides, with all this hot air about moral courage and stuff, how many Nazis have been actually punched since the beginning of the thread? It's much easier to threaten people behind a keyboard after all. And of course, people died to protect your right to do such a thing.

 

[Broken_Erika]

150 years isn't "at the time" for you ?
Okay, I'm waiting for Turkey's paying reparation for Greece, Japan paying reparation for the whole Far East and Russia paying reparation for Korea.

And Italy should pay reparation to Tunisia for the sacking of Carthage.

 

[El_Machinae]

One thing that makes the modern reparations different is that we've had a legal continuation of the original (stolen) property rights. So, they were gained under a government that still stands. Property is created by laws, and because that property was created and inherited, there's a continuation. Now if there'd been a few overthrows of society in between, that's another thing. Luckily, there hadn't been.

 

[Lexicus]

150 years isn't "at the time" for you ?

I feel like you don't even really read my posts, just fire off a set of prefigured talking points

 

[Kyriakos]

I'm curious if this extends to, say, condemning a woman pepper spraying someone who is sexually harassing her in the street. Or a gay man who hits someone shouting homophobic abuse and threats at him for showing affection with his partner in public.

If not, what makes those illegal but acceptable responses to mere speech different to responses to somebody getting clocked by a visible minority after they've been walking around the streets yelling nazi abuse at people.

I don't condone anything potentially either life-threatening or causing lasting physical damage. Unless - of course - it is a case of self-defense against physical damage; then everything goes.

 

[inthesomeday]

The misunderstanding that liberals seem to have is that they need the physical violence to already have happened or have been in progress before they accept the self-defense.