R.I.P. Ariel Sharon (a tribute thread)

[Azale]

Is it an appropriate use of Red Diamond to suppress debate on a controversial figure?

Nope.

You know what, fine. Frak it. I have never understood why people cannot be decent and civil in RIP threads. Jesus, at least for the first few pages/days. But clearly it is impossible. So have the hell at it, Moderator Action: <snip> , go for it.

You know you my main man, but you need to calm down. Since you disabled your pm's:

I thought it was more playful than anything (god I have much more vitriolic things I could have said), but you tend to take this stuff way more seriously than you should.

Moderator Action: Please don't quote offensive language

 

[Winston Hughes]

Mandela is not being held to an easier standard than a white person would by those who think he's a 'good' figure. He is held to a harsher standard than a white person would be by those who think that he is a 'bad' figure.

People being people, I think we can assume that both are reasonably common.

The point I was wondering about in metatron's post, though, concerns that patronising form of racism that underlies certain (western?) attitudes to other ethnicities/cultures, and often finds expression in well-meaning responses. Acts of charity, for example, have often been performed by people whose instinctive attitude towards those they were helping was to see them as inherently inferior (and, thus, in particular need of help). The same, I suspect, is true of some people who consider themselves staunch anti-racists.

To be clear, there are plenty of other things that motivate such responses. But I do think it's important to be aware of the tyranny of low expectations when it comes to certain identity markers (gender, class, race, etc.), and how it can entrench the stereotypes upon which much unthinking discrimination rests.

Yeah, sure, for some people this may be the cause. But i suspect a legitimate case in that direction can be made anyways. Incidentally similar attitudes could have been observed in various comments on Iceland in the financial crisis. So such a sentiment can be about race but doesn't have to be.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Formaldehyde]

The point I was wondering about in metatron's post, though, concerns that patronising form of racism that underlies certain (western?) attitudes to other ethnicities/cultures, and often finds expression in well-meaning responses. Acts of charity, for example, have often been performed by people whose instinctive attitude towards those they were helping was to see them as inherently inferior (and, thus, in particular need of help). The same, I suspect, is true of some people who consider themselves staunch anti-racists.

You occasionally hear this being stated on Fox News, and other similar sources, regarding some charities in particular. Interestingly, those are typically the charities which do not have conservative backers for some odd reason.

Others simply discount it as being part of the all-too-common "anti-racists are the real racists" meme.

But as Metatron said, there are possibly at least a few who do feel superior to those they are trying to help. I guess the real question is whether or not it is even worth mentioning if it only applies to a handful of people, instead of a large segment of the "anti-racists".

 

[caketastydelish]

What an honorable man this was that put terrorists and islamic extremists in their rightful place, which is six feet underground. I'm proud to stand with Israel and I hope they continue their campaign against terrorism. As a Persian I know our real ties are with them, not Islam which was forced upon us by foreign invaders. Israel is fighting off those same invaders.

For any other pro-Israel posters may this be a hand in friendship I offer to you.

 

[Zack]

not Islam which was forced upon us by foreign invaders

you mean like israel was forced upon palestinians by foreign powers

 

[caketastydelish]

you mean like israel was forced upon palestinians by foreign powers

If you go back further you will find the land belonged to Israel first.

 

[Takhisis]

Hmmmm. Interesting. At the time, you Persians didn't even exist, and were invading and dispossessing the Elamites and other peoples. Clearly a case of Aryan interventionism if I ever saw one.

 

[caketastydelish]

Hmmmm. Interesting. At the time, you Persians didn't even exist, and were invading and dispossessing the Elamites and other peoples. Clearly a case of Aryan interventionism if I ever saw one.

At least the Persians, like Israel, stood for democracy and tolerance. The same cannot be said for Islamic extremists.

 

[Antilogic]

Go back far enough and every spot of land was owned by somebody else.

 

[Formaldehyde]

At least the Persians, like Israel, stood for democracy and tolerance. The same cannot be said for Islamic extremists.

Who do you think the "Islamic extremists" in Iran are? Non-Persians?

Wouldn't Iran still be a secular democracy, and a shining example to the region, if the legitimate government had not been overthrown and an "extremist" far-right puppet military dictator put in its place?

 

[Winston Hughes]

You occasionally hear this being stated on Fox News, and other similar sources, regarding some charities in particular. Interestingly, those are typically the charities which do not have conservative backers for some odd reason.

Others simply discount it as being part of the all-too-common "anti-racists are the real racists" meme.

But as Metatron said, there are possibly at least a few who do feel superior to those they are trying to help. I guess the real question is whether or not it is even worth mentioning if it only applies to a handful of people, instead of a large segment of the "anti-racists".

Firstly, I reckon it applies to a far larger segment than you think. Racist attitudes are deeply ingrained in many cultures, and it's much harder to shake them off than often we assume. A fairly reliable rule of thumb is that those who think themselves free from prejudice are probably carrying around a whole lot of unquestioned prejudice.

Secondly, I think you're wrong to suppose that this is principally an argument of Fox-types (though I'm sure the latter have tried to appropriate it in typically ham-fisted manner). In my experience, it's most often and most powerfully made by African critics about western attitudes to Africa (and not least the attitude which insists on lumping the whole continent together). Some of those critics fall on what we might call the political right, many others fall on the left or centre, but very few are likely to share much in common with Fox News on matters relating to their own countries.

 

[Adjuvant]

At least the Persians, like Israel, stood for democracy and tolerance. The same cannot be said for Islamic extremists.

I think you'll suffer fewer "gotchas" if you use the term "Achaemenid".

 

[Masada]

Wouldn't Iran still be a secular democracy, and a shining example to the region, if the legitimate government had not been overthrown and an "extremist" far-right puppet military dictator put in its place?

In fairness, Mosaddegh wasn't exactly that democratic either. He blatantly interfered with democratic processes in 1952 to stave off defeat. But having said that he was still better than the Shah.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

I really hate the word racist....

 

[Terxpahseyton]

To a man who had the guts to retreat the colonists from Gaza.

That seems to be the one thing the media likes to praise him for.
For what its worth I read an opinion piece saying that he had only had done so because he realized that the "war" at that front couldn't be won, so merely made a strategic retreat so to speak. In general Sharon was characterized as a man who doesn't care about the other sides concern and this retreat was then supposedly no exception.

Can't personally comment on that.

 

[Traitorfish]

If you go back further you will find the land belonged to Israel first.

Israel wasn't established until 1948.

 

[Kyriakos]

Israel wasn't established until 1948.

You are thinking of meta-Israel.

Proto-Israel was established around 7K years ago. At roughly the same time of the creation of the Earth, and the Pharaoh.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

R.I.P. Ariel Sharon.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Firstly, I reckon it applies to a far larger segment than you think. Racist attitudes are deeply ingrained in many cultures, and it's much harder to shake them off than often we assume. A fairly reliable rule of thumb is that those who think themselves free from prejudice are probably carrying around a whole lot of unquestioned prejudice.

Secondly, I think you're wrong to suppose that this is principally an argument of Fox-types (though I'm sure the latter have tried to appropriate it in typically ham-fisted manner). In my experience, it's most often and most powerfully made by African critics about western attitudes to Africa (and not least the attitude which insists on lumping the whole continent together). Some of those critics fall on what we might call the political right, many others fall on the left or centre, but very few are likely to share much in common with Fox News on matters relating to their own countries.

Then I'm sure you will have no problem providing substantial support of these allegations from reliable sources, instead of using the same argument some conservatives use to label "anti-racists" as racists.

Your supposedly reliable "rule of thumb" is also conflating racism with prejudice. You can have preconceived notions about others without feeling superior to them. I also don't remember anybody claiming to be totally free from any prejudice. Do you?

In fairness, Mosaddegh wasn't exactly that democratic either. He blatantly interfered with democratic processes in 1952 to stave off defeat. But having said that he was still better than the Shah.

Another way of saying it would be that the Parliament granted him emergency powers to try to deal with the economic boycott and prevent the upcoming coup.

 

[classical_hero]

you mean like israel was forced upon palestinians by foreign powers

Shame on them for forcing the Arabs on the Palestinians. http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com.au/2014/01/i-was-wrong-there-really-are.html#disqus_thread