Random Thoughts IV: the Abyss Gazes Back

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Ryika just happens to live in a country that is being targetted by Erdoğan's militant mosque-building. It's not the same west as some people in the U.S. might define (i.e. north of Canada, south of Mexico and sole defeaters of the Nazis)

A country where the relatively weak force of Muslim culture is less likely to produce a law stuffing everyone into hijab than the relatively strong counter force is to ban them entirely. I certainly favor neither of those extreme outcomes.
 
I don't see how that matters to the issue that was being discussed. We weren't talking about state-enforced oppression, we were talking about societal attitudes - in this case the attitudes that are prevalent in a subsection of that society - having an oppressive effect on those who are effected by it.
 
It seems to me that you have moved on from defending the position that I initially called out as being inconsistent, to basically arguing that it is a form of oppression, but one that in your opinion just is "not that bad" compared to other forms of oppression.

If you look close you'll see that was a pretty good description of my position all along.

Look, everyone is oppressed. Even me, the white protestant cis male in California. I choose not to waste my bullets fighting against the meager forces arrayed against me, saving them for more pressing battles even when they don't benefit me directly. That creates a reality where examining oppression in relative terms is a necessity for me.

Yeah, if a woman raised Muslim is at risk of abduction (illegal here) by her family and feels the need for a violent thug willing to champion her cause I'm certainly available. But if her "oppression" is just a demand that she wear a hijab in the home she shares with her devout family this particular potential champion is just gonna tell her "call me when you decide it is bad enough to leave over and I'll cheerfully help you pack, but until then suck it up." I have bigger fish to fry. Maybe someday we'll be down to such minnows, and if so no one will be happier than I, but we sure ain't there now.
 
I mean yeah, that's the stance you immediately took after I responded to you. But your initial argument was this:

I think this statement is at the core of unwinding the contradiction. Muslim culture in the west is such a relatively weak force that it doesn't really amount to a contribution to oppression. It doesn't "very much push" anything. It applies to far too few people, and even those it applies to are more influenced by other factors.

I think the statements that I highlighted are very much incorrect (all because of how that sort of culture specifically has a very strong impact on the women living in areas that are dominated by the culture - the areas where Muslim women actually wear the hijab), and you have not yet attempted to defend them. Maybe those statements just weren't thought-through very well, or you realized that you initially misjudged how Muslim communities work in Europe and how isolated they often are from the rest of society, but those initial statements are not statements about how it's "not that bad" for them. They don't argue that it's not a problem that matters, they argue against the existence of the problem, when I think that it's obvious that the attitudes that force Muslim women to wear the Hijab are THE main problem that they face.

That, and the scope of the problem does not matter to the inconsistency that I pointed at anyway; even if it's a small problem in the overall picture, it is a problem that affects a small group of people negatively and as such, dismissing the idea that being forced to wear the hijab is inconsistent with that other statement. And don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying that you hold those contradictory views, I'm just confused why you initially argued in favor of the person who holds such contradictory views and then made a sharp turn into a completely different argument.
 
Once more...I always look at oppression in relative terms. "Doesn't amount to a contribution" and "doesn't very much push anything" are both expressions of relevance, not existence.

That's what resolves the "contradiction," at least for me. I can be ready to fight tooth and nail over one issue and blithely ignore an issue that is in fact very similarly constructed, just because one is relatively large compared to the other and not fret the least bit about the contradiction. So if someone else is equally "contradictory" my response is a shrug.
 
hi

not just "no", but [REDACTED] no

---

Let's be slightly more serious, though.

The other States of the Union that got themselves split into multiple states of the same name were split on more or less an even basis. The Province of Carolina was huge and unwieldy and impossible for the colonial government to manage effectively and so got itself split into more or less coequal chunks. The Dakota Territory also got itself split into basically coequal chunks.

What became West Virginia in 1863 was not more-or-less half of Virginia. It was always the "different" part - different terrain, different population numbers, different population type and density, vastly different history, and so on. Most of what became WV was west of the Proclamation of 1763 line, and thus didn't really participate in Virginian colonial history until very late in the game. It remained the "different" part of the state long after the Revolution. Ideally, this would have been reflected by a name appropriate to its status as "not really Virginia", just like how Vermont was named, well, Vermont rather than rejoicing in the horrifically absurd mouthful of Northeast New York. And so, when the Unionist counties of western Virginia aggregated under federal military protection in 1861, they first organized under the name of the State of Kanawha, an exceedingly appropriate name due to the prominence of the Kanawha River in western Virginian geography. (It would also have made for a good litmus test to see who's from the state and who isn't; to this day, well over 99% of people from outside WV cannot correctly pronounce "Kanawha".)

Unfortunately, the 44 idiot delegates to the state's first constitutional convention in December 1861 abandoned the name of Kanawha and settled on West Virginia, explicitly to acknowledge the new state's heritage as formerly being part of Virginia. The new name is brainless in most respects, but it does get one thing right: West Virginia is basically, in Virginians' eyes, the crappy offshoot of Real (tm) Virginia. They may very well have been politely hoping for a rename! But it ain't gonna happen unless something apocalyptic changes.

The most important reason, in most Virginians' eyes, is that their state has all the history and WV's doesn't, and changing the name would be like abandoning that history. Related to that reason is the second reason, which is that populous and wealthy Virginia is not going to change its name just because thirty men in Charleston in 1861 decided they wanted the hick part of the Commonwealth to have a different name. West and East Virginia implies some sort of coequality. West Virginia is clearly inferior in the real world - say the Virginians - in basically every way and therefore "proper" Virginia ought not stoop to their level. Now, sure, you could happily argue that Virginia lost any right to its old name by rebelling, and frankly I would agree, but the fact of the matter is that nothing was done about it back in the 1860s when it might have actually made sense and changing it now would be absolutely bonkers, especially since nowadays Virginia is way more Unionist than West Virginia is.

There's also the geographic argument. "East" Virginia extends further west than does West Virginia, due to Lee, Wise, and Scott Counties. North and South Virginia would be slightly more accurate, because the northernmost point of WV in Hancock County is way further north than Loudoun and Frederick Counties in VA while the southernmost point in VA (too many counties to name) is south of the southernmost point in WV. But it would still never ever happen. Also, anyone who seriously touts Northwest and Southeast is just kidding himself.

For what it's worth, West Virginia has a long history of flirting with cool names (like Vandalia) and appropriate ones (like Appalachia) but ultimately settling on terrible ones (like Westsylvania). Frankly, at this point, they thoroughly deserve their terrible name even if it confuses geographically illiterate foreigners.
Well, if the solution is to rename West Virginia, my vote is for reviving "Transylvania". The Kentuckians aren't using it, and the merchandising opportunities alone...

After having had a very long discussion with a sort-of radical feminist, I still don't understand how a person can hold these two beliefs at the same time:

- One of the reasons why women still aren't fully emancipated, is that society has expectations about how women are supposed to act.
- The Hijab is not a symbol of oppression in the West because no woman is forced to wear it.
Well, she probably doesn't hold both those beliefs, not really. The distinction being made is about priority, but people who place a high value on principles are generally bad acknowledging their own pragmatism.

Who benefits from decrying the hijab? Probably not women who wear the hijab. So you set that aside. But, then you have to acknowledge that you're not Moses come down from Mount Siani, you're just a person make utilitarian decisions, and it's easier to maintain two contradictory claims than two contradictory identitiesw
 
Would that be, like, a transgendered Pennsylvania?

I'm on cough medication and it's Halloween and I have a new avatar so I'm a bit more open-minded than usual.
 
3/4 of Venice is flooded. :cry:

The Mose system which is designed to protect the city is only 92% finished, thanks to corruption.
 
If I think you are oppressed, but you don't, are you?
 
I just had a brilliant idea: We should bring back the death penalty. But only for refugees who gang-rape people.. well, I guess if it's required to not seem biased, then I'm fine with extending it to citizens who have been convicted of rape, too. But really, it's all about killing refugee criminals who abuse our willingness to help.

Because think about it, solves all the problems. Those monsters are no longer a danger to anybody, not us, not the country where they're from. The right-wingers see that something is done against the criminals. Monsters who think about potentially raping people get another reason not to do it (not that it will stop them). The public doesn't need to pay for the time they spend in prison anymore. And the left-wingers get something to rally against. Everybody wins.

People who gang-rape minors should of course be executed very slowly and painfully.
 
I just had a brilliant idea: We should bring back the death penalty. But only for
This is the point where this line of argument breaks down, because there is no "but only". When you have brought back the death penalty, you have brought back the death penalty; any qualifications survive only so long as their is the political will to sustain them. In permitting the state to kill in this premeditated fashion, at a fundamental level you are extending them the authority to execute petty thieves as much as serial-rapists, you are merely asking that they do not exert this authority.
 
Well, if that's the price to pay, then I'll pay it.
 
Ease of mind, knowing that these people are no longer a part of our world.

And like I said, it might actually be a good way to sooth the right-wingers a bit.
 
What do you expect that you will receive in return?

Ahhhh....the eternal question of the death penalty; is it really an effective deterrent as compared to other sentences?

My experience with criminals is that they generally do not allow the possibility of getting caught to factor into their thinking at all. Most of them have no earthly idea what the available range of sentencing is for their crimes until after they have been caught and charged. This makes me doubtful about whether the death penalty makes any difference at all.
 
Ahhhh....the eternal question of the death penalty; is it really an effective deterrent as compared to other sentences?
To be honest, I don't even care that much about the deterrence factor.

The two reasons I would name against the death penalty are 1.) the fact that I don't see it as a harsh punishment. I would rather be killed than live in a cell for years and years. And 2.) the fact that our courts are not infallible and that we will kill people who later turn out to have been wrongly accused, and we will not have the ability to remedy the mistakes that were made by our state as well as we can.

And maybe a slight 3.) factor is the effect it has on society. Revenge should not be encouraged by the state.

But still. Maybe all of these are an acceptable trade-off.
 
Having lived in a cell for years and years I have to say it wasn't all that bad. I haven't died, so can't make a direct comparison, but at this point I would definitely opt for the cell given the choice.

And I agree with you that revenge should not be encouraged by the state, and would add that the state should therefore not be involved in extracting it. The purpose of criminal sentencing should be limited to affecting the future of society, not avenging the past.
 
Having lived in a cell for years and years I have to say it wasn't all that bad. I haven't died, so can't make a direct comparison, but at this point I would definitely opt for the cell given the choice.

And I agree with you that revenge should not be encouraged by the state, and would add that the state should therefore not be involved in extracting it. The purpose of criminal sentencing should be limited to affecting the future of society, not avenging the past.
Fiiiine, I guess no Death Penalty then. Forced Penectomy as a method to prevent future crimes is still on the table though.

Says every statist and authoritarian, ever.
Nothing wrong with taking the lead and the burden off the shoulders of the people if you know what you're doing.
 
Fiiiine, I guess no Death Penalty then. Forced Penectomy as a method to prevent future crimes is still on the table though.

That just makes for an angry criminal who does something else, and likely worse. If there is no option of rehabilitation then permanent exile/incarceration is unfortunately the answer.
 
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