Random Thoughts IV: the Abyss Gazes Back

[Ryika]

I have no idea at all what your political views are or even where you live really, and my feeling is most people have more nuance to his or her beliefs than just siding with one side (though I've been seeing things changing, with many Republicans not really thinking critically any more but just believing whatever Trump tells them to, which makes me feel very sad), and I can't comment on your views. But in my short time here, I've definitely felt you express a very strong disrespect for feminine viewpoints and a complete lack of empathy for how sexism affects women, and my feelings are not based on my perceptions of your political leanings but rather on things you've said and supported.

If you're finding people seem to have a negative view of you, have you considered perhaps it could be a response to what you say? You totally can choose whether or not you listen to people and self reflect, and you'll find good and kind people will always be willing to accept you if you're compassionate also. And like I said I can't comment on your other labels you feel people give you because I haven't seen enough of your posts, but my perception of your sexism at least is purely from my interactions with you, and so I wouldn't be surprised if others have formed opinions likewise. Your best opportunity and path to growth and change is to start by listening.

But that's exactly the point. The reason you think he is a sexist, is not because he said anything that would be seen as sexist by the general public (at least as far as I know), it's because you're an ideologue with an extreme opinion who thinks that disagreeing with you, uttering opinions that dismiss your world view (which is heavily shaped by an ideology), and not giving in to your emotionally charged arguments are evidence of sexism. They aren't, people can disagree about how the world functions, just because you make overly general claims and give your opinion on things doesn't mean you're right. Ironically, there is some good advise in your post, that part about listening and self-reflecting... and it's exactly the part that you should follow to help yourself get out of that ideological deadlock... but of course you don't, because you're already certain that your world view is correct. So labeling people who disagree with you and make up excuses in your head for why people who disagree with you, is all you can do.

@topic:
I wonder which ones of the forum emojis are the least used ones. Surely must be among them I thought, but then it's the kind of emoji that somebody might grow an affection for and use all the time. , and just look stupid though, so I am relatively confident that they're somewhere at the bottom.

 

[Gori the Grey]

I've never seen folding@home, and don't even know what that means or in what circumstances one would use it, I so that is my guess for the least used.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

But that's exactly the point. The reason you think he is a sexist, is not because he said anything that would be seen as sexist by the general public

Let's examine this. @MaryKB is apparently not the only person who "thinks he is sexist," since he complained about being "dismissed as sexist" and it is safe to assume he wasn't talking about just her dismissing him. His claim is that the root of this dismissal is that people disagree with him about something else and are just "throwing it in." Does that argument even make sense?

Now, I recently made a joke that I acknowledge was inappropriately misogynistic. On some level I regret it, but I also think it was hilarious, and it was subtle enough that so far only one person even got it as far as I can tell and he also thought it was funny. If @Mouthwash were to throw that in my face at the end of his next defense of Israeli genocides I wouldn't whine about it because it is in fact something I did and that gives ammunition seekers the right to throw it at me.

My primary disagreement with him is about the behavior of his nation state. I don't jump up out of the blue at the end of decrying the latest in Israeli genocides and say "oh by the way you're a sexist too." I might take every opportunity to call him any name I can get away with and a few that I can't, but there are a vast spectrum of things available to a name caller, so why would I choose 'sexist'? Unless there was something immediately available that made that particularly appropriate? Him being called a sexist often enough to complain about it suggests that he does say things that not only MaryKB, but this "general public" find at least close enough to sexist to use it as ammunition.

 

[Ryika]

Let's examine this. @MaryKB is apparently not the only person who "thinks he is sexist," since he complained about being "dismissed as sexist" and it is safe to assume he wasn't talking about just her dismissing him. His claim is that the root of this dismissal is that people disagree with him about something else and are just "throwing it in." Does that argument even make sense?

The way I understood his post, he is being called a sexist for having opinions that people don't like. To name an example, a person could say: "I would prefer if we returned to more traditional gender roles.", and a TON of people would call that person a sexist for it, even though there is absolutely nothing sexist about the statement. There would be downsides for women who don't like the restrictive nature of traditional gender roles, and I would say most of us would agree that the downsides of returning back to the old system outweigh the positives, but if he has a different opinion on that, that's perfectly fine. Or it should be, but of course tons of people would label him a sexist because of it.

So yeah, for that label, his argument makes perfect sense in my opinion. Like I said earlier, can't say much about some of the other labels.

Now, I recently made a joke that I acknowledge was inappropriately misogynistic. On some level I regret it, but I also think it was hilarious

You made a hilarious joke, but now you regret it? That's such a tragedy!

 

[Timsup2nothin]

You made a hilarious joke, but now you regret it? That's such a tragedy!

Not so tragic. The joke didn't disappear, and I have channeled my nominal regrets into a discussion of how to handle the fact that ethnic, misogynistic, and other "uncomfortable" forms of humor, if eliminated, would basically leave no humor at all, since humor is pretty inescapably linked with discomfort.

 

[Ryika]

That's why Jim Jefferies is such a hilarious person.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The way I understood his post, he is being called a sexist for having opinions that people don't like.

You should look at his complaint again. He says that he is called all those things by people who he usually refers to dismissively as "the left" just because they are the left and therefore want to call him any names that cross their minds. He may have a point, to a point. Three people can say the exact same sexist thing (and make no mistake, we are talking about an actual sexist thing).

One person will be looked at generally (there's that general public) with a shrug. They aren't in the habit of making sexist comments, in fact the opposite. Local damsels in distress look at this person as a defender, and local female staunch feminists look at them as an ally. They will almost certainly get a pass.

The next person is inconsistent, and will get a variety of responses. Someone they've crossed swords with might seize the moment and call them on it. There may be some general grumbles and pointing to a pattern of past similar situations.

Then there's the third person, who hasn't even let the dust settle since their last sexist remark got them called out. Thy also have a wide array of people they have alienated in various other ways. Of course they are gonna get called on what they said. And everyone is going to pile on, just for the lark of it if nothing else. That's how communities are.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

That's why Jim Jefferies is such a hilarious person.

Maybe. A good comedian can't rely just on shock humor though. I prefer a little more subtlety, but that's just a matter of taste.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

If you're finding people seem to have a negative view of you,

My view of Mouthwash is a positive one in the context of writing. He stepped up to participate in Iron Pen, the writing competition I occasionally run in the Arts & Entertainment forum, and did well in it.

As for political views... there are agreements and disagreements, as with all of us.

I wonder which ones of the forum emojis are the least used ones. Surely must be among them I thought, but then it's the kind of emoji that somebody might grow an affection for and use all the time. , and just look stupid though, so I am relatively confident that they're somewhere at the bottom.

If you don't like the smileys, there's a thread in Site Feedback where you can ask for different ones. The admins will occasionally add one or two (case in point: I requested the addition of and as a way of fostering more positive interactions, and that request was granted). I made the "mad Santa" smiley that's used during the Christmas season.

I don't recall that any smileys have been deleted; doing that would render some posts as nothing more than alphabet soup unless a substitute image were used to replace it and it was given the same code.

 

[MaryKB]

Case in point: you made all sorts of offensive claims about how males (specifically, lonely and desperate males) think, and I called you out on it. I was extremely careful not to reject the female perspective or to claim that women weren't really suffering, but it was nonetheless interpreted by Synsensa and others as 'blaming you for your own suffering.'

Oh dear, you see I feel you're doing it again, you know what I mean? I've certainly made comments about how sexism has a devastating effect on women, and I've provided examples from my own life, not as proofs (you shouldn't need proof sexism is real, I mean I feel denying that is sexism itself, right?) but as opportunities to help people like yourself see my perspective, but I feel like you've always chosen to ignore that. I feel like you're very dismissive of my feelings, and when you do so you demonstrate how you don't really care how women feel. I've seen you make posts defending misogynists and making suggestions that basically mean enslavement of women, and of course I've spoken out because those types of things are terrifying to me, because it's been literally real in the past and very easily could happen again. Too many men still don't respect women and are clearly threatened by women becoming equals, this is simply reality of our world and something people like myself have to fight for every day. And many times I've felt your comments to me are basically saying "Shut up woman, learn your place."

I feel from your posts you clearly defend misogyny, you've made sexist suggestions, and you dismiss female perspectives. And that's why I consider you sexist, not because of what generalized political affiliation you hold. You express frustration at how you're perceived, but you refuse to listen to people who are offering you insight, if you want to change that's totally your choice. Or you can continue believing people view you as sexist because you're unjustly persecuted, you brought your feelings up so I'm hoping somewhere you may really want to value other peoples' perspectives (I'll be here if you ever do want to talk in good faith.)

 

[Ryika]

If you don't like the smileys, there's a thread in Site Feedback where you can ask for different ones. The admins will occasionally add one or two (case in point: I requested the addition of and as a way of fostering more positive interactions, and that request was granted). I made the "mad Santa" smiley that's used during the Christmas season.

Oh, I like the smileys. There's a decent number of them, they have variety and still feel like they're all part of a similar theme (for the most part). The three I posted look stupid, but not in a "so they shouldn't be there"-way, but rather in a "so they're probably only used under very specific circumstances"-kind of way.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

There are a lot of people who have been here a lot longer making themselves available in case Mouthwash ever wants to talk in good faith. I don't recommend holding your breath.

 

[Ryika]

Heeeeey, I think I found your joke. But it's a rape joke, not a misogynistic joke!

 

[rah]

Well post a link to it so we can all get a jibe in at him.

 

[Takhisis]

If I can get thoughtoid to catch on, and I get the 1000th post in this thread, I'm calling the next installment Thoughtoids.

I've thought of a better title already.

But that's exactly the point. The reason you think he is a sexist, is not because he said anything that would be seen as sexist by the general public (at least as far as I know), it's because you're an ideologue with an extreme opinion who thinks that disagreeing with you, uttering opinions that dismiss your world view (which is heavily shaped by an ideology), and not giving in to your emotionally charged arguments are evidence of sexism. They aren't, people can disagree about how the world functions, just because you make overly general claims and give your opinion on things doesn't mean you're right. Ironically, there is some good advise in your post, that part about listening and self-reflecting... and it's exactly the part that you should follow to help yourself get out of that ideological deadlock... but of course you don't, because you're already certain that your world view is correct. So labeling people who disagree with you and make up excuses in your head for why people who disagree with you, is all you can do.

You're getting the hang of this sarcasm thing.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Heeeeey, I think I found your joke. But it's a rape joke, not a misogynistic joke!

Aren't rape jokes sort of a subset of misogynistic jokes?

 

[Ryika]

Aren't rape jokes sort of a subset of misogynistic jokes?

No, I don't think so. A rape joke can by misogynistic, or intentionally be written in a way to make it appear misogynistic, but it does not have to be.

In your case, the joke is clearly putting a spotlight on a problem in society (that alcohol is sometimes used to make people unable to resist sexual advances). To be honest, I don't really understand why you even feel bad about it.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

No, I don't think so. A rape joke can by misogynistic, or intentionally be written in a way to make it appear misogynistic, but it does not have to be.

Maybe I don't know enough rape jokes ( but I probably do). I see them in two subsets. Jokes about raping women, which are pretty directly misogynistic. Jokes about raping men, which are mostly prison rape jokes. Those, in my experience, rely pretty universally on the concept "person A makes person B 'his pet' through the act of rape." Since the type of pet is specifically female, the misogyny, though a bit less direct, seems pretty clear.

 

[Ryika]

But it's about the punch line, not about the subject of the joke. Is the punchline meant to demean women? Then yeah, you might call it misogynistic. Is it meant to shine a spotlight at an issue? Then I don't think it's reasonable to classify a rape joke as misogynistic.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

But it's about the punch line, not about the subject of the joke. Is the punchline meant to demean women? Then yeah, you might call it misogynistic. Is it meant to shine a spotlight at an issue? Then I don't think it's reasonable to classify a rape joke as misogynistic.

That's a perspective. It may give me too much credit though. While I was not trying to demean women, I also wasn't trying to shine any spotlights. I was just trying to be funny. The question is whether that is, in itself, a motive with sufficient inherent nobility to provide allowance for the possibility that it could be taken as intended to demean women by some people, even if they are few in number.