RB1 - Cuban Isolationists
- Thread starter Sirian
- Start date
StarrySurprise
Chieftain
Hey Sirian and Sulla. I can't believe that you guys managed to snag 6 of the 7 religions. You can practically dictate what the world will worship, especially if you set theocracy and just spread one religion. Or make tons of money by having lots of religions everywhere and having AI cities pay money to your shrines.
I learned how to add things to a building queue, but how can I make a city produce just one type of unit, such as modern armor? It's quite annoying to keep repeating to the city to build that one unit, and I don't feel like holding shift down and pressing modern armor 20 times. Is there a better way, such an option to "continue building the current unit"?
I learned how to add things to a building queue, but how can I make a city produce just one type of unit, such as modern armor? It's quite annoying to keep repeating to the city to build that one unit, and I don't feel like holding shift down and pressing modern armor 20 times. Is there a better way, such an option to "continue building the current unit"?
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
Game looking good, not surprising after getting it back from Sirian. We need to try and focus on filling up the rest of our island with cities at the moment, although that will take a good while yet to finish. Now unfortunately, in the short turn that's going to weaken our financial system even further (we're at 70% research and I expect that to drop further during my turn) but in the long run it will be to our advantage. The turning point will be when we get Currency (+1 trade routes and markets!) and start pulling in some more income. I'm also going to emphasize that we get some more courthouses - we're bleeding out way too much cash on city maintenance here!
(0) 700AD Our F2 screen, showing exactly where we're losing money. Organized Religion sure is pricey! I think we should stick with it for now though... Since we're over the unit support limit, I disband the free scout we grabbed on North Island. We can't move it back, and it's just costing us money right now. The archer, however, is in a useful spot and is retained to serve as a lookout up there. (We actually gained 3 gold from doing this - must have been some kind of rounding thing working in our favor!) Looking at the tech trade screen, Caesar would be willing to trade us Horseback Riding, but since that's totally useless to us I hold off on it. Vicky refuses to trade all her techs; too bad she won't trade Philosophy, as we could REALLY use the Angkor Wat wonder. I bet she's building it herself too. Nothing we can do about that though...
(1) 720AD Judaism spreads on its own to Madrid. (You knew *SOME* religion was going to pop up there! We should start a gambling pool on which one of our religions will spread first to the next new city.) San Roberto finishes a Hindu Monastery (Sirian, why was this the build? I understand the logic for down the road when we get out of Organized Religion, but seemed a bit strange here) and it goes back to work on a forge. Santiago finishes forge, starts Colossus! I don't think we'll get it, but even a failed attempt will put a lot of money in our hands.
(2) 740AD Santa Rosa finishes settler, starts an archer to accompany that city when it gets founded.
North Island is a little bit, umm, less impressive than it might have been. I think we'll still want to grab it, but I'm going to take some sites closer to home first. Now readers take note: if there was a water resource of some kind up there, it would be a highly desirable site (mined plains hill plus fish resource makes for a good amount of food + shields). Without a water resource though, it's a subpar fishing village. Could build some cottages on the grasslands, I suppose... but still pretty poor overall. Our settler is heading to green dot; we can build some cottages there and turn it into a decent commerce city.
(3) 760AD I spoke too soon!
Note that there IS in fact a fish resource up at red dot!
I've already got our current settler headed over to Green, but the settler under production at Matanzas right now is going to head here next. This will be a highly profitable fishing village in the future. And yes, the fish resource really does make that big of a difference!
(4) 780AD Santa Rosa finishes archer (ack! just realized there's no barracks there!) which will be sent to the new "green" city. Fortunately this city is in our backlines and is unlikely ever to see combat. Hydrata is founded in testament to the great beast.
Santa Rosa to COURTHOUSE - we desperately need to build some before we expand much further. Lots of courthouses and markets need, to be honest.
I see a deal with Caesar and make it. Theology for Construction. Sure, Caesar got a slightly better deal, but it was a fairly even trade. If we come to blows with Vicky, we'll be glad that we have cats!
(0) 700AD Our F2 screen, showing exactly where we're losing money. Organized Religion sure is pricey! I think we should stick with it for now though... Since we're over the unit support limit, I disband the free scout we grabbed on North Island. We can't move it back, and it's just costing us money right now. The archer, however, is in a useful spot and is retained to serve as a lookout up there. (We actually gained 3 gold from doing this - must have been some kind of rounding thing working in our favor!) Looking at the tech trade screen, Caesar would be willing to trade us Horseback Riding, but since that's totally useless to us I hold off on it. Vicky refuses to trade all her techs; too bad she won't trade Philosophy, as we could REALLY use the Angkor Wat wonder. I bet she's building it herself too. Nothing we can do about that though...
(1) 720AD Judaism spreads on its own to Madrid. (You knew *SOME* religion was going to pop up there! We should start a gambling pool on which one of our religions will spread first to the next new city.) San Roberto finishes a Hindu Monastery (Sirian, why was this the build? I understand the logic for down the road when we get out of Organized Religion, but seemed a bit strange here) and it goes back to work on a forge. Santiago finishes forge, starts Colossus! I don't think we'll get it, but even a failed attempt will put a lot of money in our hands.
(2) 740AD Santa Rosa finishes settler, starts an archer to accompany that city when it gets founded.
North Island is a little bit, umm, less impressive than it might have been. I think we'll still want to grab it, but I'm going to take some sites closer to home first. Now readers take note: if there was a water resource of some kind up there, it would be a highly desirable site (mined plains hill plus fish resource makes for a good amount of food + shields). Without a water resource though, it's a subpar fishing village. Could build some cottages on the grasslands, I suppose... but still pretty poor overall. Our settler is heading to green dot; we can build some cottages there and turn it into a decent commerce city.
(3) 760AD I spoke too soon!
Note that there IS in fact a fish resource up at red dot!
I've already got our current settler headed over to Green, but the settler under production at Matanzas right now is going to head here next. This will be a highly profitable fishing village in the future. And yes, the fish resource really does make that big of a difference!(4) 780AD Santa Rosa finishes archer (ack! just realized there's no barracks there!) which will be sent to the new "green" city. Fortunately this city is in our backlines and is unlikely ever to see combat. Hydrata is founded in testament to the great beast.
Santa Rosa to COURTHOUSE - we desperately need to build some before we expand much further. Lots of courthouses and markets need, to be honest.
I see a deal with Caesar and make it. Theology for Construction. Sure, Caesar got a slightly better deal, but it was a fairly even trade. If we come to blows with Vicky, we'll be glad that we have cats!
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
(6) 820AD Bede tells us we are the world's most cultured civ! Well - with all this religion, we darn well better be!
(Vicky and Caesar are far down the list, incidentally.)
(7) 840AD Vicky converts to Taoism, which she founded, apparently. Angkor Wat built in a faraway land - gee, I wonder which civ built THAT one?
Be on the lookout - our relations with the English have plummeted now that Vicky is a different religion from us. I can't get over the fact that we founded 6 religions, and the 7th one was evidently founded by the English! Tis truly the Holy Land here on this island!The good news is that our axeman has healed to full strength, and now that the barb city (Alemanni) is size 2, it can be captured as we want. The bad news is that there are now two archers in the city as well... Oh well, time to thin out one of them, in any case!
(8) 860AD Our axeman gets unlucky and loses to one of those barb archers.
That means that the barb city will continue to be a pain for some time yet to come... Bad dice luck stinks (we had about 75% chance to win by my estimate). Matanzas builds settler, goes to archer to provide a defender for that city. I was planning on sending this settler to "red" dot on North Island... but our finances stink SO badly, I'm going to need to keep him closer to home to avoid even higher maintenance costs. I'm sending him to "orange" site, and we can grab a little bit later. If we lose "red" as a result, it's my fault
, but I don't want to see us drop lower than 50% science if we can avoid it!(9) 880AD Buddhism spreads in Hydrata. Kinda surprised it took as many turns as it did for a religion to spread there! Our religious situation is completely heterogeous; no rhyme or reason whatsoever. If ever there was a civ made for Freedom of Religion later on, surely it is ours! (And how appropriate for the Cubans!)
(10) 900AD Currency discovered. WOW do these extra trade routes make a difference - our income increases by about 10 gold/turn (just think if we weren't Isolationists and could get some foreign trade routes going!) I set us to research Literature next so we can built the Heroic Epic in Havana. You can veto if desired, but Literature is a very cheap tech (5 turns) and our cities have plenty to build at the moment with markets and courthouses on hand. After that though, DEFINITELY beeline through Feudalism and Machinery to Guilds/Banking. Mercantilism is *THE* civic for us in this game, oh yeah!
Guantanamo founded on "orange" overlooking the nice little bay north of Havana. There's an archer en route that will reach it in a turn or two. Our defense is a little shaky, so I'd have San Roberto build a barracks once it finishes its forge and crank military for the next few centuries nonstop. Spiral Minaret finishes next turn, and then it's an easy choice as to what to build next: Markets, Markets, Markets! We need them in Havana, Matanzas, and Santa Rosa all at the very least. I'd hold off on building any more cities until we get those three completed. We should be getting a GrProphet for our first shrine soon too, which will help out our finances too.
I think we've actually got a good chance to get the Colossus in Santiago! (very good call Sirian!) So with luck, possibly two wonders completing in the next 10 turns. Also, watch out for that barb city! Only a matter of time until it starts to create trouble. I'm sure Sirian can handle it though.
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
Zoomed out map. You can see most of our continent from this one:
Sirian
Designer, Mohawk Games
900AD: Micro @Rosa to grow this turn. (Would have been one food short!)
920AD: Spiral Minaret completed in Havana, start Forge.
940AD: Rosa completes Courthouse, starts Settler.
If you bet on Hinduism in Sulla's Gambling Pool, you win:
Note that Caesar adopted Theocracy. ONLY Confucianism can spread in his lands now.
(Why did we trade him Theology again? For Construction? ![[pimp]](/images/smilies/pimp.gif "Pimp [pimp]")
So that he could start building the Sistine Chapel behind our backs? On a map where WE will be running 2+ specialists out of every city? ... Ah well. Could get interesting. )
960AD: Train Axeman at M-City, start Christian Temple.
TABC (That Annoying Barbarian City) spawns an archer which moves toward our border.
980AD: Archer approaches our mine. I'm shifting units there, but the only unit in range is the defender at Saint Bob. I have a tough choice to make. The safer call is to let them pillage the mine. Or I can move our lone archer out there and risk a Big Huge Dice Roll(TM), despite the defense bonuses for being on a hill, because if we lose that fight THE CITY WILL BE CAPTURED.
"Feeling lucky today, punk?" :shakehead
I must have thought it over three different times before I went with my gut and charged out to protect the mine.
1000AD: Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.
But wait! It will get even better!
920AD: Spiral Minaret completed in Havana, start Forge.
940AD: Rosa completes Courthouse, starts Settler.
If you bet on Hinduism in Sulla's Gambling Pool, you win:
Note that Caesar adopted Theocracy. ONLY Confucianism can spread in his lands now.
(Why did we trade him Theology again?
For Construction? So that he could start building the Sistine Chapel behind our backs? On a map where WE will be running 2+ specialists out of every city? ... Ah well. Could get interesting. )960AD: Train Axeman at M-City, start Christian Temple.
TABC (That Annoying Barbarian City) spawns an archer which moves toward our border.
980AD: Archer approaches our mine. I'm shifting units there, but the only unit in range is the defender at Saint Bob. I have a tough choice to make. The safer call is to let them pillage the mine. Or I can move our lone archer out there and risk a Big Huge Dice Roll(TM), despite the defense bonuses for being on a hill, because if we lose that fight THE CITY WILL BE CAPTURED.
"Feeling lucky today, punk?" :shakehead
I must have thought it over three different times before I went with my gut and charged out to protect the mine.
1000AD: Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.
But wait! It will get even better!
Sirian
Designer, Mohawk Games
1010AD: Colossus completed in Santiago. 
Starts Settler.
With the wonder building behind us, I do some "religious scouting" by converting to Judaism.
We get to scout out two English cities. That's it.
No biggie, though, as our non-Jewish core cities are building units.
Oh, this isn't good news:
Crossbowmen? And one is guarding their Iron supply? Man. If those came at us right now, we'd have to rely on CATAPULTS to fend them off! Good thing we'll get to Longbows soon.
So we pop another Prophet out of Havana. Of course, at the moment it almost doesn't matter which shrine we build, since Rome went Theocratic and England's cities all have a religion. But what the hey. I pick Judaism and build Sol's Temple.
Forge completed in Havana this turn, too, start Jewish Missionary.
Saint Bob completes Forge, starts Hindu Missionary.
1030AD: WE DISCOVER A SOURCE OF COPPER!
OK, this is enormously funny.
Once upon a time, I argued that this feature of popping resources from mines ought to be scrapped, "Because it is overpowered; it happens to me in every game." About half an hour after I wrote that, Friedrich Psitalon wrote, "No, it's underpowered. It has never happened to me at all!" Each new game I'd play, I'd post the screenshots. "Popped another one." "Another one." "Another one." Him: "Still haven't seen one." "Still haven't seen one." It was unbelievable. Then finally, "I got one!" ... Then, "It only happened that one time." "Still only one." "Still waiting." Ha!
So here I am in my first official release game, and we are down Copper, which we SORELY NEED to help build the Statue of Liberty, a VITAL wonder for our situation. And there it is.
Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.
The real kicker, though, is that that is the mine I saved by risking a major city on one roll of the dice!
"Popped another one."
Starts Settler.With the wonder building behind us, I do some "religious scouting" by converting to Judaism.
We get to scout out two English cities. That's it.
No biggie, though, as our non-Jewish core cities are building units.
Oh, this isn't good news:
Crossbowmen? And one is guarding their Iron supply? Man. If those came at us right now, we'd have to rely on CATAPULTS to fend them off! Good thing we'll get to Longbows soon.
So we pop another Prophet out of Havana. Of course, at the moment it almost doesn't matter which shrine we build, since Rome went Theocratic and England's cities all have a religion. But what the hey. I pick Judaism and build Sol's Temple.
Forge completed in Havana this turn, too, start Jewish Missionary.
Saint Bob completes Forge, starts Hindu Missionary.
1030AD: WE DISCOVER A SOURCE OF COPPER!
OK, this is enormously funny.
Once upon a time, I argued that this feature of popping resources from mines ought to be scrapped, "Because it is overpowered; it happens to me in every game." About half an hour after I wrote that, Friedrich Psitalon wrote, "No, it's underpowered. It has never happened to me at all!" Each new game I'd play, I'd post the screenshots. "Popped another one." "Another one." "Another one." Him: "Still haven't seen one." "Still haven't seen one." It was unbelievable. Then finally, "I got one!" ... Then, "It only happened that one time." "Still only one." "Still waiting." Ha!
So here I am in my first official release game, and we are down Copper, which we SORELY NEED to help build the Statue of Liberty, a VITAL wonder for our situation. And there it is.
Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.
The real kicker, though, is that that is the mine I saved by risking a major city on one roll of the dice!
"Popped another one."
Sirian
Designer, Mohawk Games
BOAT PEOPLE
So here's a plan for a bit of tactical micromanagement.
On the turn the settler finishes, load him on the galley and move the galley toward Madrid. Then the following turn, pull the ship in to Madrid and USE THE UNLOAD BUTTON, which costs no movement points, and then move the settler on toward Yellow Bullseye.
Since we got the Colossus, we should go with the two yellow bullseyes. Two good strong fishing villages instead of one large land city!
Note that boarding a ship takes your whole turn's move, as does unloading by moving the unit, but if you can unload while in a port, it does not cost movement.
CULTURAL NEGLECT
We have not, yet, built a single cultural item in Santa Rosa!
As a result, one supply of bovines is threatening to defect to England!
MOOOO!
Note that I vetoed the forest chop there, Sulla. It's a high food site, but we are already running three mines! Maybe at 1000BC, I'd do it, but at 1000AD? We're too close to Lumbermills and high population, and we can't run that plot anyway without HALTING city growth, so I cancelled the order.
Ironically, I'm using the plot in the screenshot above but that should be a very temporary thing!
The Jewish Missionary from Havana spread the faith to Saint Bob.
I also have a Buddhist Missionary almost done intended for Saint Bob as well. My thought is that Saint Bob looks like an ideal city from which to build a ton of missionaries in honor to the Hydra. We need a TON of religious stuff going on here, and soon. Minaret will make every state religion build PAY US IN CASH, so let's get cracking. Every city with the religion buildings gets bonuses. And if we want to "scout via religion" we need to build up all three Hydra heads, not just one of them!
Forget the courthouses and markets! Get temples and monastaries and missionaries done. You wanted the Minaret, and now you want to ignore it and go chasing a secular economy?
Don't make me get midieval on you.
So here's a plan for a bit of tactical micromanagement.
On the turn the settler finishes, load him on the galley and move the galley toward Madrid. Then the following turn, pull the ship in to Madrid and USE THE UNLOAD BUTTON, which costs no movement points, and then move the settler on toward Yellow Bullseye.
Since we got the Colossus, we should go with the two yellow bullseyes. Two good strong fishing villages instead of one large land city!
Note that boarding a ship takes your whole turn's move, as does unloading by moving the unit, but if you can unload while in a port, it does not cost movement.
CULTURAL NEGLECT
We have not, yet, built a single cultural item in Santa Rosa!
As a result, one supply of bovines is threatening to defect to England!
MOOOO!
Note that I vetoed the forest chop there, Sulla. It's a high food site, but we are already running three mines! Maybe at 1000BC, I'd do it, but at 1000AD? We're too close to Lumbermills and high population, and we can't run that plot anyway without HALTING city growth, so I cancelled the order.
Ironically, I'm using the plot in the screenshot above
but that should be a very temporary thing! The Jewish Missionary from Havana spread the faith to Saint Bob.
I also have a Buddhist Missionary almost done intended for Saint Bob as well. My thought is that Saint Bob looks like an ideal city from which to build a ton of missionaries in honor to the Hydra. We need a TON of religious stuff going on here, and soon. Minaret will make every state religion build PAY US IN CASH, so let's get cracking. Every city with the religion buildings gets bonuses. And if we want to "scout via religion" we need to build up all three Hydra heads, not just one of them!
Forget the courthouses and markets! Get temples and monastaries and missionaries done. You wanted the Minaret, and now you want to ignore it and go chasing a secular economy?
Don't make me get midieval on you.
Sirian
Designer, Mohawk Games
1050AD: I sent a replacement Axeman to help contain TABC (That Annoying Barbarian City).
I'm thinking he should visit that hut, though.
Rome is about to push our archers around:
I did a check on the wonders:
Greece (Philosophical) has Parthenon and Great Library in ONE CITY!
Greeks building the Greek wonders, and Incans building Chicken Itch, is almost eerie.
At this point, we should abandon any thought of the Sistine, and go ahead and build the National Epic. Do we need Machinery to be able to discover Guilds? Arrgh.
Please do not trade away Divine Right unless you can sell it to more than one civ on the same turn!
Seriously! Forget the markets and courthouses and get the internal religion spread cranking. Markets are worth a LOT less when they aren't boosting any Happiness luxuries. I'd go directly to bank construction! The Courthouses aren't bad, but the Hydra climbs to the top of the Minaret now and then, and you don't want Her gaze falling upon you, do you?
- Sirian
I'm thinking he should visit that hut, though.
Rome is about to push our archers around:
I did a check on the wonders:
Greece (Philosophical) has Parthenon and Great Library in ONE CITY!
Greeks building the Greek wonders, and Incans building Chicken Itch, is almost eerie.
At this point, we should abandon any thought of the Sistine, and go ahead and build the National Epic. Do we need Machinery to be able to discover Guilds? Arrgh.
Please do not trade away Divine Right unless you can sell it to more than one civ on the same turn!
Seriously! Forget the markets and courthouses and get the internal religion spread cranking. Markets are worth a LOT less when they aren't boosting any Happiness luxuries. I'd go directly to bank construction! The Courthouses aren't bad, but the Hydra climbs to the top of the Minaret now and then, and you don't want Her gaze falling upon you, do you?
- Sirian
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
So, on a couple of issues:
Seriously now, we were never going to build the Sistine Chapel. It would have been helpful, with the specialist-heavy economy that we'll be running, but any thought that we would get it without marble was as much a fantasy as the thought that we'd get all seven religions. As far as Theocracy goes, so what if Caesar runs Theocracy? We'll get more income from him spreading Confucianism around, which we also have founded. Were we not supposed to make a trade on the off chance that one of the hydra heads would spread on its own to his territory (wherever that might be)? The odds of that, I think, are rather low. It would be different if we could flood Caesar with missionaries, but we can't so I don't think it's that big of a deal. And if we get into a scrape with Victoria, we'll be glad we have those cats! Think of it as insurance. 
That's too much. Statue of Liberty here we come! (eventually)
Now on this one, I simply disagree with you. We are not close to Replaceable Parts, we're a good 100 turns away at the very least. Santa Rosa isn't going to be using that hill tile a lot, but there will be times when we'll be at the happiness limit and want to stop growth, or will simply need extra shields and we'll want to grab that tile. So what is the gain from leaving the forest up there? A gain of +0.4 health? If there's one thing we DON'T need, it's health! It seems to me like that's a very minor benefit - especially as we're using that hill tile RIGHT NOW and pulling in less shields than we otherwise could be, in order to gain phantom excess health that we don't need. Or at least that's the way I see it.
Oh, and we got the Colossus! Yipee! Great call on that one, Sirian.
Mucho fishing villages here we come!
Sirian said:
Seriously now, we were never going to build the Sistine Chapel. It would have been helpful, with the specialist-heavy economy that we'll be running, but any thought that we would get it without marble was as much a fantasy as the thought that we'd get all seven religions.
As far as Theocracy goes, so what if Caesar runs Theocracy? We'll get more income from him spreading Confucianism around, which we also have founded. Were we not supposed to make a trade on the off chance that one of the hydra heads would spread on its own to his territory (wherever that might be)? The odds of that, I think, are rather low. It would be different if we could flood Caesar with missionaries, but we can't so I don't think it's that big of a deal. And if we get into a scrape with Victoria, we'll be glad we have those cats! Think of it as insurance. That's too much. Statue of Liberty here we come! (eventually)Now on this one, I simply disagree with you. We are not close to Replaceable Parts, we're a good 100 turns away at the very least. Santa Rosa isn't going to be using that hill tile a lot, but there will be times when we'll be at the happiness limit and want to stop growth, or will simply need extra shields and we'll want to grab that tile. So what is the gain from leaving the forest up there? A gain of +0.4 health? If there's one thing we DON'T need, it's health!
It seems to me like that's a very minor benefit - especially as we're using that hill tile RIGHT NOW and pulling in less shields than we otherwise could be, in order to gain phantom excess health that we don't need. Or at least that's the way I see it. Oh, and we got the Colossus! Yipee! Great call on that one, Sirian.
Mucho fishing villages here we come!anjf
Warlord
great game, keep it going
Sirian
Designer, Mohawk Games
You have to love the fact that we disagree on some things. When there is more than one right answer, legitimate disagreements that revolve around preferences can emerge.
- Sirian
- Sirian
kryszcztov
Deity
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2003
- Messages
- 2,423
If there is more than one right answer, and all of them are equivalent in terms of rightness, what is the point in argueing then ?Sirian said:You have to love the fact that we disagree on some things. When there is more than one right answer, legitimate disagreements that revolve around preferences can emerge.
Apart from ego and personal preference ? Or maybe there is one right answer, but this game being too complex and too new, we can't find out the best path yet... My 2 eurocents : Don't overestimate what is new ! (TM)
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
The point of discussing (I would hardly call it arguing, Sirian and I have been doing this now for years) is that you learn a great deal about the merits of each position, and will be in better position in the future to make an informed judgement. For example, I've already noted down to pay more attention to the health benefits from forests as a result of reading Sirian's turnlogs. Don't know if he's picked anything up from me 
, but there's a good chance Sirian has.
The whole point of Civ4 was to make sure that there would be more than one right choice of what strategy to pursue (right, Sirian?) and I hope that our discussions are helping to illustrate that for the readers.
, but there's a good chance Sirian has. The whole point of Civ4 was to make sure that there would be more than one right choice of what strategy to pursue (right, Sirian?
) and I hope that our discussions are helping to illustrate that for the readers. kryszcztov
Deity
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2003
- Messages
- 2,423
Hmm OK, I really understand your point. It's true that discussing different possibilities will make us more informed in the future. BTW I call that "argueing", but that is just what it is : arguments (which can be the backbone of the "discussion").
But now I'm coming back to what is bugging me right now with Civ4 (I haven't purchased it yet BTW). Sirian keeps on telling everyone that there are more than just one right solution in any situation with Civ4. Thinking of it, I think the problem lies in how we define "right". Is it what is just needed to win the game ? Or is it the solution(s) that leads you to the quickest win or highest score, etc...? The former definition makes it clear that there are many solutions in any situation, one could even say that disbanding an important unit is one path to victory (on this easy level, shouldn't be problem to win, right ? ). The latter definition is trickier. Depending on the real goal of the game, I can't really believe that there are many solutions in any situation, but more probably one right path to the best victory. Compare that to a chess problem where there is a way to checkmate in 5 turns, but you only see the one in 8 turns... The problem is that we don't know the game so well at the moment to know the best path...
Of course we can imagine a gameplay engine where every decent solution (not counting the ridiculous ones, contrary to what the AIs do) leads to the same result (or so ), be it just victory or finish date, or score, etc... Then I'm wondering if such an engine would be entertaining ? No matter what not-ridiculous move I'm making, I'll be equally rewarded in the end. It's like I didn't have to think hard to get to the best result. I don't know if this is what Sirian means or implies. 
Getting back to my comparison with chess, here is a game which still offers multiple paths to victory (as far as we humans know ), but where there is usually ONE best move. Maybe the answer for Civ4 lies in keeping Sirian's motto but tonning it down ?
But now I'm coming back to what is bugging me right now with Civ4 (I haven't purchased it yet BTW). Sirian keeps on telling everyone that there are more than just one right solution in any situation with Civ4. Thinking of it, I think the problem lies in how we define "right". Is it what is just needed to win the game ? Or is it the solution(s) that leads you to the quickest win or highest score, etc...? The former definition makes it clear that there are many solutions in any situation, one could even say that disbanding an important unit is one path to victory (on this easy level, shouldn't be problem to win, right ?
). The latter definition is trickier. Depending on the real goal of the game, I can't really believe that there are many solutions in any situation, but more probably one right path to the best victory. Compare that to a chess problem where there is a way to checkmate in 5 turns, but you only see the one in 8 turns... The problem is that we don't know the game so well at the moment to know the best path...Of course we can imagine a gameplay engine where every decent solution (not counting the ridiculous ones, contrary to what the AIs do) leads to the same result (or so
), be it just victory or finish date, or score, etc... Then I'm wondering if such an engine would be entertaining ? No matter what not-ridiculous move I'm making, I'll be equally rewarded in the end. It's like I didn't have to think hard to get to the best result. I don't know if this is what Sirian means or implies. Getting back to my comparison with chess, here is a game which still offers multiple paths to victory (as far as we humans know ), but where there is usually ONE best move. Maybe the answer for Civ4 lies in keeping Sirian's motto but tonning it down ?Sirian is not implying that you don't have to think and choose good moves that correspond to your chosen strategy. Of course good execution is important! What he's trying to say is that there is more than one way to build a successful empire, and that depending on the initial circumstances you find yourself in from game to game, different strategies will work better or less well in different games.
If you start with a spiritual civ, then probably your best strategies will involve Great People in one way or another. A civ which doesn't have traits that encourage early aggression may not find it profitable to gear up for early wars of aggression, compared with putting those resources towards more peaceful builder pursuits... whereas in Civ3, early aggression was a strong enough opening move to nearly always be profitable. On the other hand, the terrain you find yourself in will also play an important part in deciding what your game plan should be.
Comparing to chess, to use an analogy: what if every game, you and your opponent each started out with some random pieces missing totalling a certain value (where pawns are 1, knights and bishops are 3, etc.), and also wherein some of the pieces were located on different squares than normal. Using your knowledge of chess, you might be able to adapt and figure out a strategy that will work well given your initial position -- perhaps even, if you're a very good chess player, the best possible such strategy. However, the next time you play, you might well have to figure out a completely different way of pressing your attack based on a completely different starting position and an opponent with a completely different starting position.
Of course good execution is important! What he's trying to say is that there is more than one way to build a successful empire, and that depending on the initial circumstances you find yourself in from game to game, different strategies will work better or less well in different games.If you start with a spiritual civ, then probably your best strategies will involve Great People in one way or another. A civ which doesn't have traits that encourage early aggression may not find it profitable to gear up for early wars of aggression, compared with putting those resources towards more peaceful builder pursuits... whereas in Civ3, early aggression was a strong enough opening move to nearly always be profitable. On the other hand, the terrain you find yourself in will also play an important part in deciding what your game plan should be.
Comparing to chess, to use an analogy: what if every game, you and your opponent each started out with some random pieces missing totalling a certain value (where pawns are 1, knights and bishops are 3, etc.), and also wherein some of the pieces were located on different squares than normal. Using your knowledge of chess, you might be able to adapt and figure out a strategy that will work well given your initial position -- perhaps even, if you're a very good chess player, the best possible such strategy. However, the next time you play, you might well have to figure out a completely different way of pressing your attack based on a completely different starting position and an opponent with a completely different starting position.
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While Civ4 is having a bit of a where the beef feeling so far, it is clear that a lot a garbage tactics such as ICS from Civ3 are gone.
Each game play will not only be affected by your civs traits, but position.
If you start inland who cares about fishing? A recent game I rushed to it because of a coastal city with fish. A 5 food tile is awesome for growth.
If none of your nearby resources need a pasture, how important is getting that tech?
Even resources affect play - if you have a resource that speeds up certain wonders, it may pay to take that route.
With my limited play so far it is clear that you have to adjust play every game to the hand you were dealt.
Each game play will not only be affected by your civs traits, but position.
If you start inland who cares about fishing? A recent game I rushed to it because of a coastal city with fish. A 5 food tile is awesome for growth.
If none of your nearby resources need a pasture, how important is getting that tech?
Even resources affect play - if you have a resource that speeds up certain wonders, it may pay to take that route.
With my limited play so far it is clear that you have to adjust play every game to the hand you were dealt.
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
kryszcztov, we mean exactly what we say - Civ4 was designed to try and make sure that there are multiple paths to success that are all viable. You can follow different strategies and be successful at any of them if you know what you're doing. In practice, some strategies will work better in some situations than others, but there is no one strategy that will be the best for all settings. Or at least that's what we tried to do!
(0) 1050AD Sirian has admonished me to make use of our religious sentiments to build a thoroughly theocratic economy. Markets? Bah! We shall cast out the money-changers from the temple! The glorious Cuban lands will be funded through the tithes of the faithful.
More seriously, this game will be a great chance to showcase just how much money you can really make using religion. Temple of Soloman is already providing 6 gold/turn, and we're just getting started! I will have some fun with missionaries and see what I can do in 10 turns. Also need to start building some Jewish temples (so cheap!) and monasteries since they will also provide money under the Spiral Minaret.
(1) 1060AD Havana builds a Jewish missionary, starts work on National Epic. Let's get some more Great Prophets cranking! Going to take 11 turns, so should finish right at the start of Sirian's round. Santa Rosa builds Christian monastery, starts Christian temple so it can keep growing.
City founded on "red" dot on North Island - it's called El Rojo. Hindu missionary fails to spread religion in Madrid (ack, already one bad dice roll on religion on my turn!)
(2) 1070AD San Roberto finishes its lighthouse, goes to work on some Jewish missionaries. I'll slip a monastery and a temple in there shortly as well (hey, we won't always be in Organized Religion, and the buildings will give us free gold too!) I have better missionary luck in Matanzas:
It's not building an Islamic missionary, as I immediately swap it over to a Jewish monastery. Must keep spreading the faith! The hydra's tentacles shall infiltrate our entire civ... Santiago to courthouse. Any city costing 4 or more gold to maintenance definitely should get one. Also, we'll want a Forbidden Palace in Santa Rosa down the road.
(3) 1080AD The hydra extends its clutches some more!
Appropriately, that Buddhist missionary came from Hydrata! I have it start on a forge (Sirian, did you intend for this town to be one where we whip for production? I didn't see any notes to that effect, so I'm going to start building it up.)
Meanwhile, our axe pops the hut in the east, killing the warrior in the process. And what do we get? More barb warriors pop from the hut! Axeman cuts them down easily. Hey, so that hut was, like, getting free experience, right?
(4) 1090AD Saint Bob finishes a Jewish missionary, who heads to Guantanamo. It starts on a Jewish temple (getting close to the happiness limit). Caesar would be willing to trade his techs with us, but we have nothing to trade away except Divine Right (and he can't offer anything worth that much).
(5) 1100AD Vicky demands that we cancel our deals with Caesar. Obiously I decline, but our relations with Vicky will drop that much further. Good thing we're only a couple of turns from Feudalism and longbows! Sierre Grande founded on one of the yellow dots in the north next to the tall peak. Since the last couple cities we founded still lack defenders, I'm going to swap Matanzas onto military and concentrate on that for a while there. Heaven knows we need to strengthen our defenses. (And with all these cities we've founded... wow, our finances just cannot get out of the red! Banks plus more shrines will be when we turn it around.)
(6) 1110AD Matanzas finishes its Jewish monastery, starts Archer. One thing I'll also mention on the side here is that usually the science boost from monasteries is trivial (+10%), but with us controlling no fewer than SIX religions, we can build significant numbers of them and get a real boost to science. Heck, even an Academy is only +50% to science. Six monasteries beats that! Down the road, we can use this to our advantage quite a bit. Of course, you do have to have six religions in a city to get that to work, so we may end up burning a large number of missionaries on failed conversion attempts. The hydra in Havana has already eaten two missionaries as it is!
(8) 1130AD Discover Feudalism, start research into Machinery. We're heading for Guilds and Banking next, those are clearly the top techs for us. Havana's borders expand again - we've hit 5000 culture in the city! Matanzas continues with military production, San Roberto back to work on spamming Jewish missionaries. Sirian, it will be your call as to whether to turn science off to upgrade some archers to longbows. For the moment, I plan on simply building some new longbows instead of paying for upgrades (after all, our finances stink!)
(10) 1150AD Hinduism spreads on its own to Sierra Grande. San Roberto builds another Jewish missionary. And, well, that's about it. A quiet set of turns, really. We're making progress towards digging our way out of financial debt, but with another half-dozen set of towns to found still, we won't be running 90% science anytime soon. Of course, on the plus side we'll be unbelievably strong down the road. Watch out for Vicky, she'll attack if she thinks she can get the drop on us. I suggest using Matanzas for military for the immediate future, and going with your suggestion of pumping missionaries from San Roberto. Once Havana finishes the National Epic, we can let it grow to a bigger size to pull in some more tiles.
(0) 1050AD Sirian has admonished me to make use of our religious sentiments to build a thoroughly theocratic economy. Markets? Bah! We shall cast out the money-changers from the temple! The glorious Cuban lands will be funded through the tithes of the faithful.
More seriously, this game will be a great chance to showcase just how much money you can really make using religion. Temple of Soloman is already providing 6 gold/turn, and we're just getting started! I will have some fun with missionaries and see what I can do in 10 turns. Also need to start building some Jewish temples (so cheap!) and monasteries since they will also provide money under the Spiral Minaret.
(1) 1060AD Havana builds a Jewish missionary, starts work on National Epic. Let's get some more Great Prophets cranking! Going to take 11 turns, so should finish right at the start of Sirian's round. Santa Rosa builds Christian monastery, starts Christian temple so it can keep growing.
City founded on "red" dot on North Island - it's called El Rojo.
Hindu missionary fails to spread religion in Madrid (ack, already one bad dice roll on religion on my turn!)(2) 1070AD San Roberto finishes its lighthouse, goes to work on some Jewish missionaries. I'll slip a monastery and a temple in there shortly as well (hey, we won't always be in Organized Religion, and the buildings will give us free gold too!) I have better missionary luck in Matanzas:
It's not building an Islamic missionary, as I immediately swap it over to a Jewish monastery. Must keep spreading the faith! The hydra's tentacles shall infiltrate our entire civ... Santiago to courthouse. Any city costing 4 or more gold to maintenance definitely should get one. Also, we'll want a Forbidden Palace in Santa Rosa down the road.
(3) 1080AD The hydra extends its clutches some more!
Appropriately, that Buddhist missionary came from Hydrata! I have it start on a forge (Sirian, did you intend for this town to be one where we whip for production? I didn't see any notes to that effect, so I'm going to start building it up.)
Meanwhile, our axe pops the hut in the east, killing the warrior in the process. And what do we get? More barb warriors pop from the hut! Axeman cuts them down easily. Hey, so that hut was, like, getting free experience, right?
(4) 1090AD Saint Bob finishes a Jewish missionary, who heads to Guantanamo. It starts on a Jewish temple (getting close to the happiness limit). Caesar would be willing to trade his techs with us, but we have nothing to trade away except Divine Right (and he can't offer anything worth that much).
(5) 1100AD Vicky demands that we cancel our deals with Caesar. Obiously I decline, but our relations with Vicky will drop that much further. Good thing we're only a couple of turns from Feudalism and longbows! Sierre Grande founded on one of the yellow dots in the north next to the tall peak. Since the last couple cities we founded still lack defenders, I'm going to swap Matanzas onto military and concentrate on that for a while there. Heaven knows we need to strengthen our defenses. (And with all these cities we've founded... wow, our finances just cannot get out of the red! Banks plus more shrines will be when we turn it around.)
(6) 1110AD Matanzas finishes its Jewish monastery, starts Archer. One thing I'll also mention on the side here is that usually the science boost from monasteries is trivial (+10%), but with us controlling no fewer than SIX religions, we can build significant numbers of them and get a real boost to science. Heck, even an Academy is only +50% to science. Six monasteries beats that! Down the road, we can use this to our advantage quite a bit. Of course, you do have to have six religions in a city to get that to work, so we may end up burning a large number of missionaries on failed conversion attempts. The hydra in Havana has already eaten two missionaries as it is!
(8) 1130AD Discover Feudalism, start research into Machinery. We're heading for Guilds and Banking next, those are clearly the top techs for us. Havana's borders expand again - we've hit 5000 culture in the city! Matanzas continues with military production, San Roberto back to work on spamming Jewish missionaries. Sirian, it will be your call as to whether to turn science off to upgrade some archers to longbows. For the moment, I plan on simply building some new longbows instead of paying for upgrades (after all, our finances stink!)
(10) 1150AD Hinduism spreads on its own to Sierra Grande. San Roberto builds another Jewish missionary. And, well, that's about it. A quiet set of turns, really. We're making progress towards digging our way out of financial debt, but with another half-dozen set of towns to found still, we won't be running 90% science anytime soon. Of course, on the plus side we'll be unbelievably strong down the road.
Watch out for Vicky, she'll attack if she thinks she can get the drop on us. I suggest using Matanzas for military for the immediate future, and going with your suggestion of pumping missionaries from San Roberto. Once Havana finishes the National Epic, we can let it grow to a bigger size to pull in some more tiles.
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
There's a shot of our newly-developing north. Going to be some fine fishing villages up there one day! One more thing too (TM) - we need more workers! Nowhere near enough for the cities we have. We'll have to try and squeeze a few more of them out here and there.
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