Rebuilding Lebanon

[Gladi]

Isn't the UN meant to be about bringin world peace? If it is then they are doing a lousy job at it and thus they are powerless to do their job.

Your examples were Egypt and Jordan.

Bright day
DRC? Cote d'Ivore? Was there peacekeeping to Eritrea too? Korea?

Page two if you are interested in reading the thread.

And again there is no UN. UN is phantom! Figment of imagination of world's nations!

 

[Fëanor]

Why dont you demonstrate all of us here that you know what you're talking about and compare the funding and connections between Israel and the US to those between Hizballah and Iran. I'll help you with basic points:
1) How many percents of Israel's budget comes from the US, vs the same number only with Hizballah and Iran?

Since 1976, Israel had been the largest annual recipient of U.S. foreign assistance. According to a November 2001 Congressional Research Service report, Israel: U.S. Foreign Assistance, U.S. aid to Israel in the last half century has totaled a whopping $81.3 billion.

In recent years, Israel remains the top recipient of U.S. military and economic assistance. The most commonly cited figure is $3 billion a year, with about $1.8 billion a year in Foreign Military Financing (FMF) grants from the Department of Defense and an additional $1.2 billion a year in Economic Support Funds (ESF) from the Department of State. In the last decade FMF grants to Israel have totaled $18.2 billion. In fact, 17% of all U.S. foreign aid is earmarked for Israel.

Please do read the Congressional Budget Justification for Foreign Operations @ http://www.state.gov/s/d/rm/rls/cbj/ its very interesting, and according to it Israel will receive some $2.3B for 2006 and $2.4B for 2007 in direct military assistance and probably over $3.0B Dollars in other assistance.

On the Other hand the exact budget of Hizballah is unknown, its estimated between $200-$500 Millions, of wich its estimated that Iran and Syria Supply $100-$200 Millions, probably half of their budget is used for their military operations.

2) How much of Israel's military capability is gifted to it by the US, vs the same number with Hizballah and Iran?

Well, since they buy most of it at special discount prices with the money they received from the USA you could say most of it, even the Israeli technology is stuff they received from the USA and most of what is researched is funded by the USA, some Examples

Weapons Sales and Grants

Israel is one of the United State’s largest arms importers. In the last decade, the United States has sold Israel $7.2 billion in weaponry and military equipment, $762 million through Direct Commercial Sales (DCS), more than $6.5 billion through the Foreign Military Financing (FMF) program.

In fact, Israel is so devoted to U.S. military hardware that it has the world's largest fleet of F-16s outside the U.S., currently possessing more than 200 jets. Another 102 F-16s are on order from Lockheed Martin.

The United States has also underwritten Israel’s domestic armaments industry, by giving:

* $1.3 billion to develop the Lavi aircraft (cancelled)
* $625 million to develop and deploy the Arrow anti-missile missile (an ongoing project)
* $200 million to develop the Merkava tank (operative); the latest version, the Merkava 4, uses a German V-12 diesel engine produced under license in the U.S. by General Dynamics
* $130 million to develop the high-energy laser anti-missile system (ongoing).

While overall aid to Israel is slated to decrease over the next five years, military aid will increase significantly. One of President Clinton’s last acts was to sign an agreement with Israel, phasing out the ESF by 2008. At the same time, FMF funds to Israel will increase $60 million each year, reaching $2.4 billion by 2008.

Free Weapons to Israel

The U.S. also gives Israel weapons and ammunition as part of the Excess Defense Articles (EDA) program, providing these articles completely free of charge. Between 1994-2001 the U.S. provided many weapons through this program, including:

* 64,744 M-16A1 rifles
* 2,469 M-204 grenade launchers
* 1,500 M-2 .50 caliber machine guns
* .30 caliber, .50 caliber, and 20mm ammunition

Excess Defense Articles website http://www.dsca.mil/programs/eda/edamain.htm

3) How many times in the past, say, 10 years did Israel act against the US will, again comparing it with Hizballah and Iran?

Really, quite pointless, N. Korea also acted against PRC's will on several occasions, yet N. Korea would not exist without the PRC's Aid much Like Israel would not Exist withouth the USA support.

Oh, you cant? Whoops, I guess you shouldnt have talked out of your arse.

congrats, you just got...

 

[Shaihulud]

Israel has spent enough money on Lebanon bombing the hell out of Hezbollah, saving money that should have been spent years ago by the Lebanese government / Useless UNIFIL forces to dismantle the Hezbollah according to UNSC Resolution 1559 that was never implemented and the results of that we see today.

LoL! I think that the Lebanese really appreciates your bombing as part of the reconstruction effort. Are you confident that Israel is on the right track to demolish the Hizbollah? If Israel is able to wipe out that terrorist group, i will applaud Israel acts as genius, but i think another group will arise in its place. This is due to all the pented up hate in the region, which is fanned by the evil mullahs.

 

[Mastreditr111]

Humm, Kosovo?

Try the words "US airpower" instead, for that one. UN had a peripheral role in asking us to try to stop it, and in policing afterwords, but US airpower stopped it and served as a deterrent to keep it from happening again.

 

[Gladi]

Try the words "US airpower" instead, for that one. UN had a peripheral role in asking us to try to stop it, and in policing afterwords, but US airpower stopped it and served as a deterrent to keep it from happening again.

Bright day
DRC? Cote d'Ivore? Was there peacekeeping to Eritrea too? Korea?

What about this?

 

[Sidhe]

You must be blind because it was NATO that intervened, not the UN. The UN is a powerless organisation. Read this for a simple history of that war and who actually stopped it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War

The UN has been responsible for bringing about peacable resolution of 127 conflicts since 1948. another ill informed person makes the same boring comments about the UN and reveals his lack of knowledge, honestly it's like sheep standing in a field bleating at each other, just because it's fashionable to infer that the UN has no power doesn't mean you have to jump on the band wagon of ingnorance and say it too. Now onto the next political thread where someone will say the same ill informed message, can we get a link, to how rubbish the UN is? So we can have some sort of meaningfull dialogue about it instead of someone just repeating the buzz phrase so we can all feel superior about something we know nothing about.

Isn't the UN meant to be about bringin world peace? If it is then they are doing a lousy job at it and thus they are powerless to do their job.

Your examples were Egypt and Jordan.

No that is ridiculous? Again find out about the UN's remit.

El-slavador, Iran - Iraq, they also have prevented many conflicts from even starting. Believe it or not having an impartial broker in peace negotiations is vital to conflict resolution.

 

[Lotus49]

As I type this, Israel is pounding suspected Hezbollah targets in Lebanon with airstikes and artillery, while making final preparations for a ground assault. In the near-term, I'd say 'rebuilding' is a bit premature. Long-term, pointless. Why rebuild in the middle of a perpetual war zone? Some places are just destined to become ruins - why fight it?

 

[Fëanor]

Edit: Whoeps wrong thread... dammned multi tabs firefox!

 

[Gladi]

As I type this, Israel is pounding suspected Hezbollah targets in Lebanon with airstikes and artillery, while making final preparations for a ground assault. In the near-term, I'd say 'rebuilding' is a bit premature. Long-term, pointless. Why rebuild in the middle of a perpetual war zone? Some places are just destined to become ruins - why fight it?

Because then they will be war zones and recruiting grounds for terrorists for ever and always.

 

[Winner]

Lebanon, Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia and other Arabic states. It's their problem, not ours. They have billions of dollars/euros from oil sales, so I guess they should finally show a bit of responsibility and start helping their brothers in Lebanon and Palestine.

I see no reason why should EU, US or anybody from the West pay for damage they have brought upon themselves by supporting terrorists.

 

[Gladi]

Lebanon, Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia and other Arabic states. It's their problem, not ours. They have billions of dollars/euros from oil sales, so I guess they should finally show a bit of responsibility and start helping their brothers in Lebanon and Palestine.

I see no reason why should EU, US or anybody from the West pay for damage they have brought upon themselves by supporting terrorists.

A) they don't all support terrorists. 40% of Lebanese are christian, 24% are part of wider Roman Church (Pope is official head of maronites AFAIK), hardly the evil muslim fanatics you so like to clamour about

B)If Syria and Iran pay for reconstruction Lebanese will remember this. West gave Israel bombs to destroy us, our brother helped us to rebuild our lives. Sugar and whip Winner.

 

[Lotus49]

Because then they will be war zones and recruiting grounds for terrorists for ever and always.

Well, even with the infrastructure in place (which now after the strikes, the Lebanese PM says has knocked them back '50 years, at least'), the gov't was not able/willing -whatever- to control the southern part of the country. So, you can rebuild all you like, but this is still the same amusement park ride; where you go around, but eventually always come right back to where you started, and vomit. It seems obvious there needs to be a no-man's land, and this area is as good as any.

Or, let Israel occupy all the surrounding areas - and expand/retract as they deem necessary. That's probably the best choice, IMO.

As for rebuilding - it's always pointless until the fighting is really over. No sense in rebuilding Berlin when the bombs are still falling. And if you rebuild Lebanon with the cancer within still intact, well that makes no sense.

 

[Gladi]

Well, even with the infrastructure in place (which now after the strikes, the Lebanese PM says has knocked them back '50 years, at least'), the gov't was not able/willing -whatever- to control the southern part of the country. So, you can rebuild all you like, but this is still the same amusement park ride; where you go around, but eventually always come right back to where you started, and vomit. It seems obvious there needs to be a no-man's land, and this area is as good as any.

Or, let Israel occupy all the surrounding areas - and expand/retract as they deem necessary. That's probably the best choice, IMO.

As for rebuilding - it's always pointless until the fighting is really over. No sense in rebuilding Berlin when the bombs are still falling. And if you rebuild Lebanon with the cancer within still intact, well that makes no sense.

Maybe because the infrastructure was not in place? It was ocupied country till not so long in the past... Lebanese managed to get rid of Syrians and then everybody forgot about them. I fail EU, we should have sent security advisors and helped raise christian army.

 

[Eli]

Fëanor:

I like your style! You post raw data that completely proves my position and then claim victory. What was the name of that Iraqi spokesman?

The current Israeli budget is 86 Billion Dollars. The US aid, which as your post correctly states totals 3 Billion Dollars a year, or 3.4% of the entire budget. Moreover, this figure is complete. That is, with the exception of some leftover stocks of light weapons, that's the entirety of the US financial support. All the equipment Israel buys from the US is bought either with Israel's money or with those extra 3.4%.

While the Hizballah, even according to your rough data(without any source, btw) has at least 20-40% of his budget coming from Iran and Syria(from where does the rest come, btw?) and this figure isnt complete because it doesnt account for the direct military aid given to Hizballah. While Israel received as a gift "64,744 M-16A1 rifles, 2,469 M-204 grenade launchers, 1,500 M-2 .50 caliber machine guns, .30 caliber, .50 caliber, and 20mm ammunition", which is peanuts for a modern army, the Hizballah's almost entire formidable arsenal is a direct gift which is not included in the budget numbers.

Soooo... 3.5% with everything included, vs 40% without counting most of the military equipment. Damn! I was so pwned!

And what happened to you in that pic? Was that the first time your numbers didnt add up? I hope you wont be so hard on yourself this time.

 

[GoldEagle]

Why the hell should America help rebuild it? We have enough freaking debt ourselves.

 

[Winner]

A) they don't all support terrorists. 40% of Lebanese are christian, 24% are part of wider Roman Church (Pope is official head of maronites AFAIK), hardly the evil muslim fanatics you so like to clamour about

Stop being lame, please. I never said that all Lebanese are evil muslim fanatics or whatever else people throw on my head.

B)If Syria and Iran pay for reconstruction Lebanese will remember this. West gave Israel bombs to destroy us, our brother helped us to rebuild our lives. Sugar and whip Winner.

This strategy is clearly not working in the Middle East. At first, it failed in Palestine - EU is giving them millions of euros every year, without which they would probably starve to death. As a sign of their gratefulness, they pillaged EU offices in Gaza during the cartoon row.

I don't care about what they think about the West anymore. Pretty much the whole Middle East hates the West anyway and no amount of money given to them will change that. The struggle for their hearts and minds is lost, so let's just leave them to take care of themselves.

 

[Nobody]

Iran and Syria. They are the masters of Hizballah and they should pay for the damages it caused.

If Iran or Syria started giving money to rebuild labanon then israel would say its a example of funding terrorists and bomb lebanon (i dont care for spelling) even more.

Israel should rebuild the country, You make the mess you clean it up!

 

[mdwh]

I certianly don't think Israel should foot the bill, as I feel their actions are justified, and I don't think Lebanon is capable of it just yet.

I disagree that this necessarily follows though.

Even if we say that their actions are justified - that this is the best way for them to achieve their aims, it is still their *responsibility* to cover the costs incurred by bombing infrastructure and civilian targets.

 

[Eli]

If Iran or Syria started giving money to rebuild labanon then israel would say its a example of funding terrorists and bomb lebanon (i dont care for spelling) even more.

How much Saudi investment money had flown into Lebanon in the last 6 years? By your logic, Israel should be blaming Saudi Arabia for funding Hizballah and, well, that doesnt happen. Why dont you blame Israel for car accidents in Madagascar while you're at it?

 

[mango20022002]

Israel because its actions violate the Geneva Convention which prohibits collective punishment. If they were just targeting Hezbollah I might feel differently. However it is difficult to argue they are not using a sledge-hammer to crack a nut. For the sake of 2 soldiers they are bombing bridges, roads, and Dresdenising cities. This is surely collective punishment of an entire population and disregarding civilian lives? Maybe IDF and Hamas are only different in their methods, but not in their intentions towards the other side? No doubt the billions in US taxpayer's money each year would help Israel pay for the reconstruction!