Riots in Paris suburb for 3rd night after teenagers electrocuted

[Lozzy_Ozzy]

So your saying that business men are racist, because they don't make a special effort to hire people of a different race???

Surely thats racism in itself.

 

[h4ppy]

Stuff I blieve
Other side's opinion.

 

[AceChilla]

Oh God, the sky is falling ! The Muslims are coming !

What are they even thinking, living here in the Netherlands ? They were supposed to do the crappy jobs no Dutchman wanted to do and leave when we no longer needed them ! When a Turk or Moroccan-born immigrant lives here and has the same education level as a Dutchman, why are we surprised that they're far more likely to earn lower wages or be unemployed than that Dutchman ? It's not like we don't make an effort to include these people, do we ?

Get them out, I say ! Out, out out !!!!

Wilders has the right idea - we can only save our society by becoming a bunch of paranoid and xenophobic maniacs - I wonder why we don't set fire to immigrant detention centers on purpose. That should teach 'em .
Verdonk for president !

Hmmmm

I understand your point but it's bogus.

Check out how former immigrants from Suriname are doing, hindus, Chinese or whatever else. If Dutch employees were such racist why do those groups have no problem finding jobs in our country at all? Why do Surinamers are even less often unemployed than Dutch people, why do Chinese children reach higher education levels then Dutch people?

This attitude of yours (the "its all our fault mentality") has been proved to be nonsense.

By the way, we didn't bring these people over here as slaves to work for us. It was a great oppurtunity for them to earn money, while the economy in their home country was virtually nonexistant. We gave them an opportunity, not enslaved them to do our dirty work. By the way, can you give me an example of such a "dirty job" we've let immigrants do which Dutch people didn't do? Because all those so called dirty jobs where done by the Dutch working class just as well.

We don't owe our immigrants anything. We gave them an opportunity to live in a great welfare society, where they could practice their religion, get their kids a usefull dimploma and have their free opinions. That is a great gift, and it shows because they didn't return did they?.....

 

[Winner]

Oh God, the sky is falling ! The Muslims are coming !

What are they even thinking, living here in the Netherlands ? They were supposed to do the crappy jobs no Dutchman wanted to do and leave when we no longer needed them ! When a Turk or Moroccan-born immigrant lives here and has the same education level as a Dutchman, why are we surprised that they're far more likely to earn lower wages or be unemployed than that Dutchman ? It's not like we don't make an effort to include these people, do we ?

Get them out, I say ! Out, out out !!!!

Wilders has the right idea - we can only save our society by becoming a bunch of paranoid and xenophobic maniacs - I wonder why we don't set fire to immigrant detention centers on purpose. That should teach 'em .
Verdonk for president !

Are the immigration supporters even able to discuss this topic? All I hear from them are stupid accusations of racism/xenophoby (universal nuke-answer to dismiss all arguments) or sarcasm :thumbdown

 

[Winner]

Check out how former immigrants from Suriname are doing, hindus, Chinese or whatever else. If Dutch employees were such racist why do those groups have no problem finding jobs in our country at all? Why do Surinamers are even less often unemployed than Dutch people, why do Chinese children reach higher education levels then Dutch people?

That's the question all denialists should ask themselves. If the Europeans are such racists, why the hell they discriminate just against the Muslim people and not other minorities?

Complex of self-accusation of everything is immensely stupid. It isn't always our fault. We should accept the fact that some cultures are more tolerant than the others and some cultures are more violent than the other. There is absolutely nothing racist in that statement.

 

[AceChilla]

That's the question all denialists should ask themselves. If the Europeans are such racists, why the hell they discriminate just against the Muslim people and not other minorities?

Complex of self-accusation of everything is immensely stupid. It isn't always our fault. We should accept the fact that some cultures are more tolerant than the others and some cultures are more violent than the other. There is absolutely nothing racist in that statement.

Needless to say I agree with you.

From what I see here and read it the news, people from most European countries arent even trying to find answer to these kinds of questions. They just deny a problem exists at all, close there eyes and hope it goes away. I don't think thats the solution. Its a sad fact most people choose to ignore the biggest challanges European societys face nowadays. Sad but true

I mean when you see people who start to blame the police for ID checking and find that a good excuse to start 3 days of riots and burn 14 cars....

Don't you see the bigger issues here? Or are you just ignoring them?

What message does such a reaction give to those rioters? It says to them "your right for burning those cars, you right to start 3 days of riots, and your right you feel discriminated!". It only strenghtens the victim mentality many immigrants young boys already displacy and use as an excuse to do whatever. If a society reacts this way to this kind of violence, how will you ever solve the problem?

 

[jameson]

Hmmmm

I understand your point but it's bogus.

Check out how former immigrants from Suriname are doing, hindus, Chinese or whatever else. If Dutch employees were such racist why do those groups have no problem finding jobs in our country at all? Why do Surinamers are even less often unemployed than Dutch people, why do Chinese children reach higher education levels then Dutch people?

Well are Surinamers really less often unemployed than native-born Dutchmen ( leaving aside the fact that Surinamers often are native-born Dutchmen ? I'd *love* to have a source on that ! But insomuch as Surinamers do less badly than other immigrants the reason why is rather obvious .
Also, you mention 'hindu immigrants'. WHAT hindu immigrants ? Where are these people hanging out exactly ? Are they skulking around in the Veluwe woods or something ? Equally, I'd be amazed if the Chinese made up more than 5-10% or so of the total imigrant population

This attitude of yours (the "its all our fault mentality") has been proved to be nonsense.
By the way, we didn't bring these people over here as slaves to work for us. It was a great oppurtunity for them to earn money, while the economy in their home country was virtually nonexistant. We gave them an opportunity, not enslaved them to do our dirty work.

Oh, I agree that integration is a two-way street. It is by no means all our fault.
But current policies and Wilders-style stances are a complete abnegation of the responsibility we did and do have for those agreements with Moroccan and Turkish authorities contracting for the supply of cheap labour from the Rif mountains and Eastern Anatolia once we started running out of Spaniards.
Great opportunity we gave them though - make a buck and then be disposed off like toilet paper. That was never going to work - you can't bring people here and let them work here for years and then expect them to up and leave when no longer needed. And so we never startedc trying to achieve integration until much too late.

By the way, can you give me an example of such a "dirty job" we've let immigrants do which Dutch people didn't do? Because all those so called dirty jobs where done by the Dutch working class just as well.

Heh - just try and get a Dutchman on welfare work in the greenhouses, on the land, or in a 24h cleaning service or a warehouse. Immigrants are way overrepresented there.

We don't owe our immigrants anything. We gave them an opportunity to live in a great welfare society, where they could practice their religion, get their kids a usefull dimploma and have their free opinions. That is a great gift, and it shows because they didn't return did they?.....

My point is that in fact, we didn't. We were only starting recently, but people like Wilders and Verdonk are undoing all attempts in that direction. If I were an immigrant in the Netherlands I'd be starting to feel rather unwelcome by now.
And if I were a refugee from Somalia, Iran or the Congo, I 'd be absolutely terrified.

 

[AceChilla]

Nevermind...

 

[bad_ronald]

Acechilla,

Could you translate the chart you've pasted? I used an online translator and got "Profession on social insurance and security provisions" for the title.

 

[Winner]

Heh - just try and get a Dutchman on welfare work in the greenhouses, on the land, or in a 24h cleaning service or a warehouse. Immigrants are way overrepresented there.

That was their choice.

My point is that in fact, we didn't. We were only starting recently, but people like Wilders and Verdonk are undoing all attempts in that direction. If I were an immigrant in the Netherlands I'd be starting to feel rather unwelcome by now.
And if I were a refugee from Somalia, Iran or the Congo, I 'd be absolutely terrified.

Nobody has forced them to came here. If they don't like it, they are free to go back to their country.

 

[Winner]

From what I see here and read it the news, people from most European countries arent even trying to find answer to these kinds of questions. They just deny a problem exists at all, close there eyes and hope it goes away. I don't think thats the solution. Its a sad fact most people choose to ignore the biggest challanges European societys face nowadays. Sad but true

That's so European - we have a problem? OK, we close our eyes and ignore it - maybe it won't be here when we open it. Agh, it's still here, so let's pretend it isn't... :shakehead

The problem won't disappear if we do nothing. The immigrants won't suddenly throw off their culture and become European. The problem will just grow...

 

[Eetu Pellonpää]

This event reminds me of a movie by Mathieu Kassovitz!

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0113247/

Has anybody here seen it?

 

[Stapel]

Oh God, the sky is falling ! The Muslims are coming !

What are they even thinking, living here in the Netherlands ? They were supposed to do the crappy jobs no Dutchman wanted to do and leave when we no longer needed them ! When a Turk or Moroccan-born immigrant lives here and has the same education level as a Dutchman, why are we surprised that they're far more likely to earn lower wages or be unemployed than that Dutchman ? It's not like we don't make an effort to include these people, do we ?

A national Second Chamber led investigation concluded that integration was somewhat succesful, despite the ridiculous (left-wing) idiocy of integration programs. This report was shoveled away by the left rather quick! But it's conclusion was simple: integration programs have a negative effect on integration. What we did here in the 70s, 80 and early 90s was plain stupid: To put it in one sentence: Basically, we translated anything into Turkish and Arab, instead of making (or forcing? like: people are force to learn to swim, when thrown in the water) them to learn Dutch and respecting common non-democratic and severely freedom-brucing culturally determined aspects of immigrants societies.
Aspects we used to have in calvinist Netherlands, which we succesfully smashed down in the 70s.

About education levels: the problem is that even 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants do not suffer that much form not getting the right job, while having the right education. They simply, in general, have a rather poor education. Dutch companies are rather proud of employing immigrants, for their image. There is soem discrimination, but usually it can be found for jobs that requite no education at all....................

Get them out, I say ! Out, out out !!!!

Wilders has the right idea - we can only save our society by becoming a bunch of paranoid and xenophobic maniacs - I wonder why we don't set fire to immigrant detention centers on purpose. That should teach 'em .
Verdonk for president !

The single most annoying thing left-wingers (like you) tend to do, is mixing up criticism on two totally different issues: How to handle our immigrant Dutchmen (who simply are Dutch) and how to handle new immigrants.

Every time some dude comes up with the totally logical idea of not absorbing new immigrants (restricting it to marriage and/or work), there will always be a few lefties to accuse this dude of aiming to send back those who are here already.

It is a simple fact we can help 10 times as many refugees, near their original location as here, for the same money. Now double that money, and really help people out out, instead of locking a few up in those nasty AZCs....

Immigration has many disadvantages (in 2004, we reached the 50% barrier: 50% of our prisoners are not born in NL, 70% even has at least one parent not born here).
Does it have advantages?
Do we really think we can buy a good feeling by absorbing a 100 people from Sudan, while millions are left there?
It doesn't help! In the end, it's just a silly idea!

And how to speed up integration in NL?

Go have debate and tell people what we, according to Dutch norms, for which the left has fought so hard for decades, about gays, women and social freedom are important for us. We should not tolerate intolerance, and we should not appease backward views, whether they are from Staphorst or from the Atlas mountains.

 

[Verbose]

This event reminds me of a movie by Mathieu Kassovitz!

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0113247/

Has anybody here seen it?

Yep.

Great movie.

Winner et al. might like it.
Three young men of "imigrant origin" (mixed bunch) drift around Paris at night, dodging the police.

The title refers to the man who fell out of a window on the 20th floor. When passing the 2nd he tells himself: "So far, so good!"

I'm inclined to agree with all those who think Europe has a problem here that needs to be adressed immediately.

Needlessly to say, so does Kassovitz and slew of young people who have themselves imigrated, or their parents did.

But then we are talking about everybody taking part, not just the "natives" hunkering down while the Authorities chuck every suspect olive skinned face out of the country...

 

[Verbose]

The problem won't disappear if we do nothing. The immigrants won't suddenly throw off their culture and become European. The problem will just grow...

No they won't, if we do nothing.

If we keep confusing cause and effect, like you do, they sure as hell won't either...

 

[Grisu]

Shame on the BBC for not telling the whole story, but I think it the same in many European countries. These problems are hardly addresed or muffled away like it wasn't there. Im glad in The Netherlands we are finally ready to face the facts, only when you do that you can start thinking about solutions.

the problem I see is that the only ones so far that are willing to adress the issue are the far right-wingers, whose "solutions" are either unworkable, simplistic or downright fascist. But because they are the only ones to address it, they're getting many populist votes.

I'm just wishing that soon the moderate left and right will start addressing it in a reasonable way.. and no: aaaargh the muslim hordes are coming, we must close our borders... isn't a reasonable approach IMHO.

Let's face it, our countries need Immigrants, we wouldn't be anywhere as wealthy without immigration. But immigrants often spark deep fears within the local population. In Switzerland in the 60s it was the Italians, coming here for work. Many people then called for more rigid immigration, because we are being overrun.... (see a pattern there? )

In the 80s it was the Turks and later the people from Yugoslavia...and everytime people saw the end of Switzerland approaching.
I agree that the issue has to be addressed, especially how to handle violent immigrants, but that generalization: muslim immigrants -> Baaaad is just wrong, IMHO

 

[Stapel]

the problem I see is that the only ones so far that are willing to adress the issue are the far right-wingers, whose "solutions" are either unworkable, simplistic or downright fascist. But because they are the only ones to address it, they're getting many populist votes.

Very true!

The problem is that as soon as moderate left- or right-wingers address the issue, someone is ready to accuse them of whatever nasty extremism.

 

[aneeshm]

I haven't read the story Winner has posted. Actually I couldn't give a damn' about it. It's simply that I usually don't believe a guy considering Bush is too moderate as worth reading.

Anyway, how two dudes getting electrocuted have a link with international terrorism and Islam fundamentalists ?

When you refuse to listen to what you consider your opposition , even with a closed mind , you are the one who has no place in a civilised debate , not your opponent .

 

[aneeshm]

Also, you mention 'hindu immigrants'. WHAT hindu immigrants ? Where are these people hanging out exactly ? Are they skulking around in the Veluwe woods or something ? Equally, I'd be amazed if the Chinese made up more than 5-10% or so of the total imigrant population

Maybe not to Europe , but look at Silicon Valley . Indians/Hindus contributed a very great deal to that place . And look at how well they have integrated , without losing their old culture .

 

[Marla_Singer]

When you refuse to listen to what you consider your opposition , even with a closed mind , you are the one who have no place in a civilised debate , not your opponent .

Fine then. I'm glad to not be enough civilised to join that debate which is, by the way, totally off-topic in this thread.

If you want you can open a thread called "Let's bash people who are not like me". And you'll be fine over there.

The thing is that I simply don't care about this. I don't like people pointing other ones as the only responsible for their own troubles. Personally, this is not my problem and that's why I don't participate to your debate.