Rule Change: Publication of Infraction Appeal Threads

Did that number ever change after any mods left or joined the team?
It's a measure that is largely not satisfactory for any party. It was better than nothing, but also completely one-sided in narrative.

What was originally desired were (1) open discussion and perhaps (2) penalized moderators for past abuses. As we already know, neither options are acceptable to the volunteers who are moderating the forums.

With this said, there are greener pastures elsewhere in the web. Reddit, voat, and armchair generals are superior alternatives. What's also good in those places is that popular unrest have a history of removing abusive moderators/administrators (which their counterparts in CivFanatics rightfully fear).



That's true. The ship has already sailed for a number of us (including me). Better pray for a reversal of the Civ Franchise's dismal progression to keep the dwindling user base.

My neural pathways are all set up for CFC. I've tried to get into new forums about 10 times since I joined CFC, even CFC exodus ones, but it only worked once. It's really only its mafia board, and it happened like a month or two ago.
 
the number of appeals does not seem markedly down from before - we just have very few - I guess for various reasons.

Maybe it's a sign that the moderating volunteers are showing more restrain and tact instead of going rambo as before.

My neural pathways are all set up for CFC. I've tried to get into new forums about 10 times since I joined CFC, even CFC exodus ones, but it only worked once. It's really only its mafia board, and it happened like a month or two ago.

It's quite easy in fact. Just take CFC off your bookmarks and wait a week.
 
Regarding the latest infraction appeal, Tigranes versus Bootstoots, I'd like to raise the question, whether so called "flaming other members" particularly in such "political threads" need to be revised.

Politics is for some a joint efford to achieve consensus, for others naturally a field of polemics and, essentially, dissent. The latter don't think, that politics should be mixed up with "police assignments". There are people, who don't condemn at hominem arguments and personal attacks in the arena of politics, because, in their minds, a degree of nastyness is essentially part of politics, as a means of justifiable self-defense. In the real world, this view maybe not prevails, but is shared by many. This is meaningful for forum moderation policies. Should a forum exclude those "polemic" participiants from political discussions? Shouldn't moderation policies be aware of the difference between political discussion and one dealing with unit art animation?

(I'm saying: "flaming" and "trolling" aren't the same in a "political" thread.)

Or you might just as well prohibit "political" threads at all, if you decide, it would be too much for the volunteering, well-meaning moderators to deal with unleashed, uncensored debate.

Currently, the rule change in moderation policy toward public infraction reviews is a good thing, but the way, how an infraction in the context of a "political thread" has been dealt with (in the above example), only fosters conformism and standardized, unsurprising communication.

Or is the Civfanatics forum a place for people, who want to read nothing but the permanent affirmation of their own opinion? It's so easy to read your own opinion, just post it by yourself. You don't need another human being to do that. Another voice is useful, only if it says, what you would never say, not even doped.
 
The thread where those infractions occurred is one that includes politics, religion, and a mix of OT members from various countries, each of which have different attitudes, policies, and laws regarding same-sex marriage and to what extent people may or may not deny goods or services based on their own beliefs. It's a very contentious issue which tends to bring out very emphatic arguments on multiple sides, and it's unlikely that anyone is going to change their opinion.

Rules are necessary for sites that intend to allow discussion of politics and religion. The first forum I ever joined, 11 years ago, was also a gaming forum - for tabletop RPGs. That forum didn't allow discussion of politics or religion, to the point where people flipped out because I used a Remembrance Day poppy as an avatar. Just mentioning the Prime Minister got a warning from the admin.

CFC isn't like that, and I'm glad of it. We're allowed to discuss politics and religion here, but the tradeoff is that it can't become a free-for-all.
 
As to your comments, kenpfred, I can understand your position on divergent means of political discourse. However, I don't see a necessity to succumb to the lowest common denominator by permitting mean-spirited behavior. I think it is fair for a community to set higher standards.

Such higher standards do not necessarily mean we must be non-confrontational and maintain a consensus based system of discourse. Confrontation about ideas can be, perhaps should be, a healthy part of discussion. However, such confrontational debates need not devolve into attacks upon an authors person.


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Regarding the latest infraction appeal, Tigranes versus Bootstoots, I'd like to raise the question, whether so called "flaming other members" particularly in such "political threads" need to be revised.
I took a glance, this one is obviously not appropriate. The one thing that stands out above all is an insult on someone's appearance, which is usually forbidden in web forums.

One thing that strikes me with these "infraction appeals" though is that they are all clean-cut case where the offenders were clearly in the wrong. Were these examples cherry-picked by any chance to strengthen the impression that all infractions are legit? Or had moderators truly taken a step back? As far as I remember, infractions were given out quite liberally while I was around.
 
I took a glance, this one is obviously not appropriate. The one thing that stands out above all is an insult on someone's appearance, which is usually forbidden in web forums.

One thing that strikes me with these "infraction appeals" though is that they are all clean-cut case where the offenders were clearly in the wrong. Were these examples cherry-picked by any chance to strengthen the impression that all infractions are legit? Or had moderators truly taken a step back? As far as I remember, infractions were given out quite liberally while I was around.

Only infractions that get officially appealed are posted.
 
I took a glance, this one is obviously not appropriate. The one thing that stands out above all is an insult on someone's appearance, which is usually forbidden in web forums.

One thing that strikes me with these "infraction appeals" though is that they are all clean-cut case where the offenders were clearly in the wrong. Were these examples cherry-picked by any chance to strengthen the impression that all infractions are legit? Or had moderators truly taken a step back? As far as I remember, infractions were given out quite liberally while I was around.
Take a look at the newest one: "Forma vs. ori". As Synsensa says, all appeals are posted now, whether the original infraction is upheld or reversed (or could be upheld but downgraded, as that's another possible option).
 
I took a glance, this one is obviously not appropriate. The one thing that stands out above all is an insult on someone's appearance, which is usually forbidden in web forums.

One thing that strikes me with these "infraction appeals" though is that they are all clean-cut case where the offenders were clearly in the wrong. Were these examples cherry-picked by any chance to strengthen the impression that all infractions are legit? Or had moderators truly taken a step back? As far as I remember, infractions were given out quite liberally while I was around.

My experience tells me that the appeal rate is tied to the volume of infractions given by moderators. A moderator who gives out lots of infractions will suffer more appeals than one who gives out less. Duh!

I'm guessing that over the past year or so, changes in subforum moderator responsibility assignments and the exodus of perceived trouble maker members has led to fewer OT infractions and appeals.

Maybe there are numbers to support this.
 
Take a look at the newest one: "Forma vs. ori". As Synsensa says, all appeals are posted now, whether the original infraction is upheld or reversed (or could be upheld but downgraded, as that's another possible option).

By the way, I am freely breaking PDMA rule by commenting in the case. Feel free to to infract if that offends someone's need for asserting authority.
Moderator Action: Well, then please do not break the PDMA rule.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

I'm guessing that over the past year or so, changes in subforum moderator responsibility assignments and the exodus of perceived trouble maker members has led to fewer OT infractions and appeals.
I see. I was almost going to believe that the volunteer staff finally learned something about diplomacy and responsibility. But instead, it appears as if they are once again shoving all the blame towards other people.

Well, I am quite content with my choice of staying with Armed Chair Generals. There are far better discussions, more diverse topics, and less contention. On top of that, forum rules were balanced and intelligently written. Volunteers there are also rather emotionally secure about themselves and do not need to stroke their tiny egos by creating disputes.

With this said, my curiosity of PDMA's recent development has been satiated. I will check back in a few months. In the mean time, do feel free to try out ACG.

P.S. Congrats on the Orange Wave, Valka. You got what you wished for. I hope Ontario rides on it too in the federal election.
 
P.S. Congrats on the Orange Wave, Valka. You got what you wished for. I hope Ontario rides on it too in the federal election.
Thanks. Heave Steve! :D
 
Given the six-month trial period has now expired and the policy is under consideration for permanent implementation, now would be a good time to provide any further feedback that you might have.
 
How long do we have to discuss this? (what I mean is, how long before the decision is made, because I do have things to say but would like enough time to compose my post)
 
Given the six-month trial period has now expired and the policy is under consideration for permanent implementation, now would be a good time to provide any further feedback that you might have.

Already have up-thread: it's a good policy. I like it. Keep doing it.
 
I'm guessing that over the past year or so, changes in subforum moderator responsibility assignments and the exodus of perceived trouble maker members has led to fewer OT infractions and appeals.

Nice to know there's a presumption of respect, courtesy and good will here.

Never change, CFC. Never change.
 
In all seriousness, the infraction review publication has been a positive step forward. It was a fair compromise and it showed that the CFC staff were at least listening to some of the member criticisms on openness and accountability.

I hope in the future we can have more PDMA policy relaxation, but this step has started to show that opening staff deliberations doesn't hurt anyone and helps the whole community feel like their concerns are responded to and debated respectfully.

Hopefully we keep the policy!
 
How long do we have to discuss this? (what I mean is, how long before the decision is made, because I do have things to say but would like enough time to compose my post)

The original idea was to decide by the end of October, but that may be brought forward if we've reached a conclusion earlier. In any case, the earlier we receive feedback (such as what has already been posted in this thread), the more chance we will have to consider it.
 
Keep it in place - it creates a barrier to infracting those willing and able to amount a persuasive appeal and not afraid of having their PMs made public.
 
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