Russian Answer to EU- The Eurasian Union

[Veles]

Short: The EU is not the European NAFTA equivalent and if Russia intends to join only based on that angle, it all the more proves that they have no place in it.

So what's your ultimate point, bro? You don't wanna Russia in EU in principle?

 

[Leoreth]

Not sure I follow. The economic benefits of allowing basket-case book-cooking kleptocracies into the Franco-German currency zone allude me.

Stable currency rates are beneficial, especially to exporting nations like Germany. Of course it wasn't taken into account that it could become as bad as it currently is, but you should give the guys responsible some credit for doing something like that for the first time in the history of money.

Never said anything like that. If you actually read my posts rather than becoming so defensive and ignoring their content, you'll see I'm talking about relations-management.

Yeah, I noticed that the argument was going off rails as well (although I refuse to take the complete blame for that), which is why I asked you to repeat your position in my last post.

So what's your ultimate point, bro? You don't wanna Russia in EU in principle?

No. (Although I see some general problems coming from its geographical extent as well, but that's not my main concern).

I don't want countries that employ a political system that's merely the facade of liberal democracy and uses its Security Council position to protect countries which are looked upon unfavourably by the EU in the EU on principle.

 

[Veles]

No. (Although I see some general problems coming from its geographical extent as well, but that's not my main concern).

I don't want countries that employ a political system that's merely the facade of liberal democracy and uses its Security Council position to protect countries which are looked upon unfavourably by the EU in the EU on principle.

This could solve the European energy supply problem for good. It could remove the huge perpetual tension in Europe. For good. It could provide a living space for Northern civilization for centuries to come. We could form a most populous, strongest and advanced nation with enormous potential. And you say that the only substational obstacle is that Russia doesn't look democratical enough? Then I find this description by Pangur Bán to be pretty accurate:

Well arguably a big problem with the current EU is that it's been hijacked by political ideologues and is no longer as economically orientated as once it was.

And having Russia joined EU you would certainly influence its political environoment in a positive way too a very huge extent. That's if you actually play by your own rules at your place rather than just preaching it to others

It's very surprising you're actually buying this crap about liberal democracies. You guys have no problems supporting the thugs of Kosovo, when it suits your geopolitical agenda. And what about Lisbon threaty? They had to brainwash and make people vote until they chose the "right" option. In every nation, at any time in history, it's never been anything else than realpolitik in charge. People who try to genuinely "play by the rules", "follow the principles", like Gorbachev in his time, find themselves to be screwed over very quickly. Hopefully, this will change one day.

Russia "protects" countries that are "looked upon unfavourably by the EU" (why the feck should that be Russia's concern anyway) because it serves it's geopolitical views of balance of powers. If the configuration of powers changes, and Russia becomes one league with Europe, this decisions will be changed too.

And that's all assuming that it even wants to join in the first place. It doesn't actually, Russia will gain less than EU in this scenario.

 

[Winner]

Russia "protects" countries that are "looked upon unfavourably by the EU" (why the feck should that be Russia's concern anyway) because it serves it's geopolitical views of balance of powers. If the configuration of powers changes, and Russia becomes one league with Europe, this decisions will be changed too.

Well, here you answered your own question - why should the EU take in a country that believes the EU is a rival to be balanced?

And that's all assuming that it even wants to join in the first place. It doesn't actually, Russia will gain less than EU in this scenario.

It will join, one day. It's Europe's manifest destiny to stretch from the Atlantic to the Pacific, uniting the whole northern part of the Indo-European family in one alliance

 

[Veles]

Well, here you answered your own question - why should the EU take in a country that believes the EU is a rival to be balanced?

EU as it is now is Russia's rival as a matter of a fact. You know, all this interceptor missles thingy, and European opposition to the idea of common Russia-EU security forces... etc. This should be changed of course.

...It's Europe's manifest destiny to stretch from the Atlantic to the Pacific, uniting the whole northern part of the Indo-European family in one alliance

He-e-ey, it was my idea! Don't give Europe credit for my idea!
Apparently, you didn't take part in my award-winning thread about Europe's expansion.

 

[Winner]

EU as it is now is Russia's rival as a matter of a fact. You know, all this interceptor missles thingy,

Which is totally not meant to be any threat to Russia...

and European opposition to the idea of common Russia-EU security forces... etc. This should be changed of course.

... what? Look, the problem often is that the Russians have a problem believing that Europeans actually take all this liberty and human rights stuff seriously. Being slightly paranoid as you are ( ), you tend to assume it's just a front for some hidden anti-Russian plot, no doubt directed from Washington

The truth is that so long as Russia remains an authoritarian state, the EU will always be suspicious and unwilling to cooperate too closely with it.

He-e-ey, it was my idea! Don't give Europe credit for my idea!
Apparently, you didn't take part in my award-winning thread about Europe's expansion.

We both agree that unification is inevitable, we differ on who should be the main motivator

 

[Veles]

Which is totally not meant to be any threat to Russia...

Omg, really? You promise? Do you swear by Perun?

... what?

At the beginning of his career Medvy proposed to unite Russian and European defense forces but there was no coherent response from EU.

Look, the problem often is that the Russians have a problem believing that Europeans actually take all this liberty and human rights stuff seriously.

They take this all seriousely when it suits their agenda, when it doesn't they pretend that nothing happened, see Kosovo for example. Of course this all perfectly fits into realpolitik policy, which is the only universal principle in our primitive human society.

Being slightly paranoid as you are ( ), you tend to assume it's just a front for some hidden anti-Russian plot, no doubt directed from Washington

History is a good teacher, bro

The truth is that so long as Russia remains an authoritarian state, the EU will always be suspicious and unwilling to cooperate too closely with it.

Well, we could use some better democracy, no contest about that. But the goal is not to be democratical, the goal is to be happy, fed, healthy, rich, strong and do no evil to others. If that's better achieved through democracy, than that's the way. I'd prefer Swiss or Icelandic democracy to any formation anyday.

We both agree that unification is inevitable, we differ on who should be the main motivator

The rivalry here only delays the acheveing of the goal. Both should be the "motivators".

 

[Winner]

Omg, really? You promise? Do you swear by Perun?

Unless you can demonstrate to me how two dozens interceptors designed to hit relatively low-tech warheads can somehow neutralize the thousands of Russian warheads, yeah, I'll swear by whatever deity you name

At the beginning of his career Medvy proposed to unite Russian and European defense forces but there was no coherent response from EU.

I guess everyone understood it wasn't meant as a serious proposal.

They take this all seriousely when it suits their agenda, when it doesn't they pretend that nothing happened, see Kosovo for example. Of course this all perfectly fits into realpolitik policy, which is the only universal principle in our primitive human society.

Nah, despite all the cynicism, we actually do care. You have to understand that. I realize that for the people who actually govern Russia now this is totally outside their own perception of how the world works, so while they are in charge, we won't get anywhere.

History is a good teacher, bro

Yes, but you have to understand what it is it teaches. Because if you think that the current EU members don't have a bloody history in which invasion followed an invasion, you're wrong. Russia isn't unique in this respect. What is unique is the sense of paranoia it bred in the Russian people. Like "oh noes, the foreigners want to eat us!"

Well, we could use some better democracy, no contest about that. But the goal is not to be democratical, the goal is to be happy, fed, healthy, rich, strong and do no evil to others. If that's better achieved through democracy, than that's the way. I'd prefer Swiss or Icelandic democracy to any formation anyday.

The problem is, until Russia becomes democratic, the Europeans will never accept it as a member. It's THE prerequisite for integration, together with being European (which goes without saying).

 

[Veles]

Unless you can demonstrate to me how two dozens interceptors designed to hit relatively low-tech warheads can somehow neutralize the thousands of Russian warheads, yeah, I'll swear by whatever deity you name

I see you're well intended, Czech bro. But such promises are not within the scope of your responsibility. As long as there's a territory given to US military, they do there whatever they please and don't tell me that they actually gonna be responsible to Czech parliament or anything. How many times they have screwed Poland over, no matter how much loyalty Poland showed to them? It's not even funny, actually. It's not that they gonna report you about every their activity. Today it's 12 missles, tomorrow it's 1000 ICBMS. The veiled massage they give us is "who the feck are ye to have a say here"? Russia stance here is principal.

Relax, if Iran ever launches a missle to Europe crazyeye we'll hit it down ourselves.

I guess everyone understood it wasn't meant as a serious proposal.

How so?

Nah, despite all the cynicism, we actually do care. You have to understand that.

I have little doubt that you do. Believe me, the absolutу majority of Russia does either. But do you really feel authorized to say that on behalf of European elite? Remember, the folks in power, anywhere, are cynical and selfish bastards who only care about... other things than common good. The exceptions are preciose and rare.

Yes, but you have to understand what it is it teaches. Because if you think that the current EU members don't have a bloody history in which invasion followed an invasion, you're wrong. Russia isn't unique in this respect. What is unique is the sense of paranoia it bred in the Russian people. Like "oh noes, the foreigners want to eat us!"

Nobody is bred with paranoia. Minus the propaganda it's all pretty rational. Interpretation of history is a very individual thing.

The problem is, until Russia become democratic, the Europeans will never accept it as a member. It's THE prerequisite for integration, together with being European (which goes without saying).

More democratic Russia is benefical to everybody, who is argueing against that? What I'm saying is the union with EU could actually make it way more democratic.

 

[red_elk]

Unless you can demonstrate to me how two dozens interceptors designed to hit relatively low-tech warheads can somehow neutralize the thousands of Russian warheads, yeah, I'll swear by whatever deity you name

Is there any agreement which limits the number of US interceptors in Europe, their design or technology? I think we can have at least Winner's promise that the number will not be higher than 2 dozens in near future. Czech citizens have control over US base equipment on their soil, aren't they?

 

[Aleksey_aka_al]

Yes, but you have to understand what it is it teaches. Because if you think that the current EU members don't have a bloody history in which invasion followed an invasion, you're wrong. Russia isn't unique in this respect. What is unique is the sense of paranoia it bred in the Russian people. Like "oh noes, the foreigners want to eat us!"

Oh, really?! "Those evil Iraqis have weapons of mass destruction, they will use them to attack us, because they think we'll attack them, SO let's kick their arse!", "And this Gaddafi, he's plotting against us and all the humanity, because he thinks everyone is plotting against him, LET'S KILL HIM, TOO!"...

Modern West is not that different from its past versions: it consists of separate nominal states, yes, but while interacting with the remaining world it acts as a single aggressive xenophobic empire.

 

[Verbose]

Oh, really?! "Those evil Iraqis have weapons of mass destruction, they will use them to attack us, because they think we'll attack them, SO let's kick their arse!", "And this Gaddafi, he's plotting against us and all the humanity, because he thinks everyone is plotting against him, LET'S KILL HIM, TOO!"...

Modern West is not that different from its past versions: it consists of separate nominal states, yes, but while interacting with the remaining world it acts as a single aggressive xenophobic empire.

That was the EU, was it?

The problem the EU members tend to have with Russia is that the Russian leadership doesn't take this citizens' rights and liberties, democracy included, stuff seriously... INSIDE Russia, as they might apply to Russians... And apparently the Russians are, mostly, fine with this?

 

[Virote_Considon]

It will join, one day. It's Europe's manifest destiny to stretch from the Atlantic to the Pacific, uniting the whole northern part of the Indo-European family in one alliance

And perhaps in the distant future it could include some of the southern parts too if they reformed themselves enough

 

[Aleksey_aka_al]

That was the EU, was it?

The problem the EU members tend to have with Russia is that the Russian leadership doesn't take this citizens' rights and liberties, democracy included, stuff seriously... INSIDE Russia, as they might apply to Russians... And apparently the Russians are, mostly, fine with this?

And the problem some Russians (and people from other countries, respectively) see in the Westerners is that they pry into inner affairs of Russia as if it was their own country. They try to force rules that—as it seems totally clear now—do not work in their own countries as good as they idealise them. And they never adjust them to the realites of the part of the world they are trying to apply them.

As for the current Russian leadership, it is a successor to pro-Western, separatist and highly Russophobic impostors of Perestroyka era. And all the real problems we have now come from this (and that's true for most other post-Soviet states).

I want this four rights and no other: to keep my mind clean, the goverment of my country to be honest with me, my life to have a meaning, and my country to have a future. Because all other good and ultimate things will come from these four.

 

[Winner]

I see you're well intended, Czech bro. But such promises are not within the scope of your responsibility. As long as there's a territory given to US military, they do there whatever they please and don't tell me that they actually gonna be responsible to Czech parliament or anything. How many times they have screwed Poland over, no matter how much loyalty Poland showed to them? It's not even funny, actually. It's not that they gonna report you about every their activity. Today it's 12 missles, tomorrow it's 1000 ICBMS. The veiled massage they give us is "who the feck are ye to have a say here"? Russia stance here is principal.

It's amusing you have such a low opinion of the Czechs and Poles. Believe me when I say that our alliance with the US is nothing like the one we used to have with the USSR (=dance to the Soviet tune, get rolled over by tanks when we stopped for a moment).

Relax, if Iran ever launches a missle to Europe crazyeye we'll hit it down ourselves.

a) That won't help us one bit
b) It's not just Iran. In case you haven't noticed yet, the whole Middle East is a bit unstable region. Practically any country there barring Israel can become hostile to the West practically overnight, and start building up missile/WMD arsenals (with Russian, Chinese, Pakistani, and North Korean help most likely). The need for some kind of anti-ballistic missile defences is actually recognized by all European states, it's not an American initiative that's being shoved down our throats.

How so?

Well, every single time Russia proposed something like this, it was a just a ploy to divide Europeans from Americans, or Europeans from other Europeans. If you're serious, apply for NATO membership

I have little doubt that you do. Believe me, the absolutу majority of Russia does either. But do you really feel authorized to say that on behalf of European elite? Remember, the folks in power, anywhere, are cynical and selfish bastards who only care about... other things than common good. The exceptions are preciose and rare.

I am fairly convinced most Czech politicians (except the Commies and a bunch of other populists, our Mr. Pres included) take it seriously. Our foreign policy is in large part determined by it. It's the same in most post-communist EU members, and the others too, although bigger countries tend to get cynical from time to time.

In other words, individual leaders may sometimes forget, but in general European governments do care about all this stuff, it's not all just a rhetoric.

Nobody is bred with paranoia. Minus the propaganda it's all pretty rational. Interpretation of history is a very individual thing.

So, what exactly does history teach you? That the Europeans (Germans, French, Swedes, Poles) are out to get ya? That we're secretly planning a Barbarossa II or something? Just tell me, and then explain how it's different from the lessons history "taught" Poland, Czechia, Belgium, or Spain.

More democratic Russia is benefical to everybody, who is argueing against that? What I'm saying is the union with EU could actually make it way more democratic.

The standard procedure is: you apply for membership, if you meet the Copenhagen criteria the application is accepted, then you begin accession talks, and when you meet all the criteria, the European Council and Parliament decide whether you'll join or not.

I don't think the EU is going to make any exceptions of the sort "let's take in a non-democracy and hope the membership will somehow spur democratic reform." That would be suicidal for the EU.

Is there any agreement which limits the number of US interceptors in Europe, their design or technology? I think we can have at least Winner's promise that the number will not be higher than 2 dozens in near future. Czech citizens have control over US base equipment on their soil, aren't they?

There are no US bases on our soil yet. And even if they were, they'd be just small radar installations - ironically dependent on electricity from our energy grid

Anyway, this is a typical slippery slope fallacy. You have zero evidence that the West is planning to build some kind of a comprehensive strategic anti-ballistic shield aimed at neutralizing Russia's nuclear capabilities. We have a thousand times more evidence that Iran is building a nuke, but you ignore that completely. Yeah...

And BTW, currently the only country in Europe which has deployed anti-ballistic missile defences on its territory is... Russia. So why don't you just get real?

Oh, really?! "Those evil Iraqis have weapons of mass destruction, they will use them to attack us, because they think we'll attack them, SO let's kick their arse!", "And this Gaddafi, he's plotting against us and all the humanity, because he thinks everyone is plotting against him, LET'S KILL HIM, TOO!"...

Modern West is not that different from its past versions: it consists of separate nominal states, yes, but while interacting with the remaining world it acts as a single aggressive xenophobic empire.

This coming from a Russian is too amusing to allow a reply

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And perhaps in the distant future it could include some of the southern parts too if they reformed themselves enough

Like who? Iran, India? Too different in terms of culture.

 

[Leoreth]

And that's all assuming that it even wants to join in the first place. It doesn't actually, Russia will gain less than EU in this scenario.

That's, actually ... very reassuring?

And the problem some Russians (and people from other countries, respectively) see in the Westerners is that they pry into inner affairs of Russia as if it was their own country. They try to force rules that—as it seems totally clear now—do not work in their own countries as good as they idealise them. And they never adjust them to the realites of the part of the world they are trying to apply them.

See, I actually care for the Russian people and wish them to have a form of government that appears to be right to me. But you're right, in the end it's none of my business, and even less my government's. But that ceases as soon as Russia enters a political union, and that's exactly what the EU is, no matter how often it's called ideology here. The EU doesn't work under the principle "let's trade and everything else is none of your business".

So, I don't know if you're actually in favor of Russia joining the EU or just rushed to its defense when people criticized it. The latter is fine, but not the topic of this thread.

As for the current Russian leadership, it is a successor to pro-Western, separatist and highly Russophobic impostors of Perestroyka era. And all the real problems we have now come from this (and that's true for most other post-Soviet states).

The problem with the current Russian leadership is that it is a self-serving kleptocracy that employs foreign politics of needless antagonism and imperialist revisionism.

I want this four rights and no other: to keep my mind clean, the goverment of my country to be honest with me, my life to have a meaning, and my country to have a future. Because all other good and ultimate things will come from these four.

I hope you will at some point get the bolded part.

 

[Aleksey_aka_al]

This coming from a Russian is too amusing to allow a reply

Winner, you live in a typical small unsignificant country, province of the Western Non-imperium, which once was painfully pwned by the West. People of such countries-provinces are known for arse-licking, ingratiating and fanatical imitation of the true Westerners. Even your avatar here reveals this strive to match European identity. So your constant offensiveness towards Russia is understandable, because Russia and the West are natural rivals, and dog on a chain is barking too when stranger is passing by.

Yes, that's totally politically incorrect. Have it, what you give.

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Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Winner]

Winner, you live in a typical small unsignificant country, province of the Western Non-imperium, which once was painfully pwned by the West. People of such countries-provinces are known for arse-licking, ingratiating and fanatical imitation of the true Westerners. Even your avatar here reveals this strive to match European identity. So your constant offensiveness towards Russia is understandable, because Russia and the West are natural rivals, and dog on a chain is barking too when stranger is passing by.

Yes, that's totally politically incorrect. Have it, what you give.

Any more idiotic stereotypes that you Russians need to keep rehashing to rationalize the fact that this small insignificant country of arse-lickers enjoys far greater living standards and security than your glorious super-duper-empire?

(and I apologize to other Russians here, but the comment I am replying to is just asking for it).

Moderator Action: Trolling. Don't take the bait.
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[Aleksey_aka_al]

But that ceases as soon as Russia enters a political union, and that's exactly what the EU is, no matter how often it's called ideology here. The EU doesn't work under the principle "let's trade and everything else is none of your business".

So, I don't know if you're actually in favor of Russia joining the EU or just rushed to its defense when people criticized it.

Russia joining the European Union would be mistake for both the EU and Russia. The same way as Turkey joining the EU, for example.

Here's the candidate of one of the previous presidential elections in Russia, who suggested joining the EU:

Spoiler :

Freemason... He was a total joke! One friend told me that his girlfriend had voted for this man out of pity.

 

[Aleksey_aka_al]

Any more idiotic stereotypes that you Russians need to keep rehashing to rationalize the fact that this small insignificant country of arse-lickers enjoys far greater living standards and security than your glorious super-duper-empire?

Aha, so I've touched the sore spot

Rationalize that: a human being has much more to care about than just consuming (compared to a consumer).

(and I apologize to other Russians here, but the comment I am replying to is just asking for it).

If you want to, you should do it practically every time you say something about Russia, because it's usually "idiotic stereotype".

Spoiler :

I hope nobody is fooled into thinking Russia is a democracy.

I'll believe it when a party that's not actually just a bunch of fanatical Putin followers plus profiteers wins the election and the parliament starts functioning as a parliament, not as a rubber stamp to anything Putin throws its way.