School not getting results? Fire everybody!

[Camikaze]

YEAH! We need unions to guarantee the jobs for people who suck at what they do...apparently.

They most likely do not suck at what they do. They can teach and teach and teach and teach and teach but for some kids it isn't going to make a difference. The major problem most likely is underfunding of teaching resources, which seems to be supported by the fact that the superintendent didn't have enough money to pay them more for what is essentially overtime. Now, of course, there are bound to be bad teachers in a group of that size, just as there are bound to be bad teachers in a top performing school, but using results as the basis of determining who the best teachers are is lunacy, as it assumes all kids have the same aptitude for learning, which is hopelessly incorrect.

Reading comprehension fail.

No, I was just assuming that $78k was being underpaid for what they probably have to put up with.

 

[Patroklos]

They most likely do not suck at what they do. They can teach and teach and teach and teach and teach but for some kids it isn't going to make a difference. The major problem most likely is underfunding of teaching resources, which seems to be supported by the fact that the superintendent didn't have enough money to pay them more for what is essentially overtime.

If this is the case, which nothing in the article points too, it is probably because the budget is wasted padding the salaries of overpaid failures.

I agree that the student performance has to be taken with a grain of salt given the quality of the students, but this school's performace is far below what I would expect from any group of students no matter how poor.

 

[downtown]

Typically, the powers that be don't really care how bad your scores are, they're just looking for improvement. If you teach 5th grade, your students show up at the 2nd grade level, and you bring them up to the 4th grade level...your students are still technically "failing", but nobody is upset.

When you are stagnate for years, you have issues.

 

[Camikaze]

If this is the case, which nothing in the article points too, it is probably because the budget is wasted padding the salaries of overpaid failures.

I agree that the student performance has to be taken with a grain of salt given the quality of the students, but this school's performace is far below what I would expect from any group of students no matter how poor.

The problem is that the automatic conclusion jumped to is, 'oh it must be the teachers', when that is certainly not the case. If the teachers don't have anything to work with (and although that isn't specifically stated in the article, it is a fair inference from the superintendent having no funding), then how on earth are they meant to get good results, regardless of their expertise?

Now, firing a few teachers, even a handful, would be acceptable, given a review of those individual teachers and their methods, with observation of how they individually perform. Because obviously there are bad teachers. But bad results in no way indicates that all teachers are bad, and a knee-jerk reaction of the 'fire them all' kind is not going to help anyone, as the bunch of new teachers that come in are just as likely to be have about the same number of duds, but without any experience at the school.

 

[luiz]

Needs even more unionisation. Obviously the union isn't powerful enough to guarantee the jobs of the workers, so more unionisation is needed to ensure that in future something as ridiculous as this doesn't happen. It isn't greed to expect that you are going to be paid a higher rate for what is essentially overtime, and if anything the teachers are probably underpaid as it is, judging by what it seems they most likely have to deal with.

If you consider 78k USD a year for a bad schoolteacher to be "underpay", I'd really like hear what you consider "overpay".

This case is just one example of Unions harming everyone but the people they represent. Or maybe even the people they represent, because their greed and laziness has left everyone unemployed.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

The rivers run red with the blood of educators in Central Falls, RI.



And the link http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-b...alk-at-reforms-and-longer-hours-theyre-fired/

Bolding Mine.

I'll post more when it isn't my lunch break, but what do you think? Is the union greedy? SHould it be legal/okay to fire *everybody*? How to do turn around a situation like Central Falls (which is really pretty bad, even by my generous standards of bad).

Yes, the union is outrageously greedy. $30/hour is fair. $90/hour is ludicrous, especially considering it's in the teachers' own best interests to attend these sessions.

Firing the teachers was the right thing to do. Firing everybody else was not. The article doesn't say, but were even the school nurses and the janitors fired? That's insane! What about the teachers who were honestly trying their best but did not have adequate supports like appropriate text books and audio-visual materials? What about the school libraries - did they contain up-to-date reference materials and a trained teacher-librarian on staff? 'Cause not just any teacher can also be a good librarian...

Are there social factors at work here preventing the proper teaching activities, such as excessive drug culture, gang warfare, politicians using the school system as bait and pawn material against each other? Which levels of government are involved in this? Did anybody ask the students themselves for THEIR input?

Thus ever proving my contention that teachers don't really give a crap about their students and that the public school system is a failure.

Most teachers DO care about the kids, at least somewhat. Considering the pathetic salaries some jurisdictions pay these people, they must be in it at least partially because they consider it a calling. But yes, there are teachers who really don't care of the students actually learn anything, and those are the teachers who should be fired. I've had teachers and college instructors like that. I've had teachers who knew their subject material but were clueless as to how to teach it to students, especially the ones who had problems (ie. me, with algebra and physics).

The situation in the OP smacks of a school where the teachers just sat back and collected their $$$$$ without actually doing the work and are mad because they got caught.

 

[Karalysia]

This article shows why unions in America need better organization. A strong collection of unions wouldn't have allowed this sort of thing to happen.

 

[Bamspeedy]

 

[Cutlass]

People saying the teachers are paid too much shouldn't be considering what the work is "worth", but rather what it takes to employ people able and willing to do the job. I have no idea what that number is, but I'm certain it's not $30/hr.

 

[Camikaze]

If you consider 78k USD a year for a bad schoolteacher to be "underpay", I'd really like hear what you consider "overpay".

This case is just one example of Unions harming everyone but the people they represent. Or maybe even the people they represent, because their greed and laziness has left everyone unemployed.

Teachers in disadvantaged schools are generally underpaid, given what they have to put up with. I'm not saying that they should get $300K a year, just that they are certainly not getting overpaid. Now, if they are being paid $78k a year, if you were to convert that to an hourly wage (only counting on-site hours, of course), then they get paid about $60/hour. So asking them to work overtime for half that is ludicrous. Asking them to work overtime for time and half pay is reasonable. That's what they asked for. You don't want to pay them overtime pay? Train them during normal working hours.

 

[Patroklos]

Getting paid $60 an hour is ludacris as it is. The equation is simple, the school budget is this so we can aford to pay you this. If you don't like it leave.

Unless someone can point to a shortage of teachers these ones simply overplayed their hand.

 

[Camikaze]

Well sure, if you want the free market to decide, fine, but you'll be stuck with a horrific standard of education.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Union officials said they wanted to be paid for more of the duties and wanted to receive a higher pay rate –– $90 per hour..

Getting paid $60 an hour is ludacris as it is. The equation is simple, the school budget is this so we can aford to pay you this. If you don't like it leave.

FAIL.
Should have deamanded six figure bonuses for driving the school into the ground.

 

[downtown]

I think using hourly pay isn't a very good metric for evaluating teacher salaries, given the enormous amount of unpaid, out of office hours that are expected from everybody in the profession. You don't clock in at 8 and go home at 4. I worked 11-13 hour days my first 3 months, and still give two hours a day "off the clock", and that isn't unusual at all, specially for that kind of working environment.

The total salary number is a better indicator.

 

[Cutlass]

How many hours a year do you "officially" get paid for?

 

[Karalysia]

People should get paid for the utility and true value of their work not the market value of their work. That of a teachers I would guesstimate should be in the six figure salary range. A minimum of $90,000-100,000 I would so. We should pay teachers as much as we pay professors if not more, teachers are at a vital stage in education and a grossly underpaid for what they do. Then we wonder why our schools are crappy, our teachers crappy when we pay them miserable salaries.

 

[downtown]

Are there social factors at work here preventing the proper teaching activities, such as excessive drug culture, gang warfare, politicians using the school system as bait and pawn material against each other? Which levels of government are involved in this? Did anybody ask the students themselves for THEIR input?

Given that the income in that city is 22,000, I'm going to go with a yes. Poverty brings all of those things in...makes it hard to teach.

 

[Patroklos]

I think using hourly pay isn't a very good metric for evaluating teacher salaries, given the enormous amount of unpaid, out of office hours that are expected from everybody in the profession. You don't clock in at 8 and go home at 4. I worked 11-13 hour days my first 3 months, and still give two hours a day "off the clock", and that isn't unusual at all, specially for that kind of working environment.

The total salary number is a better indicator.

I work 24 hour days for months at a time, I feel what you are saying. However, neither of us walked into our jobs with our eyes closed, its understood that some jobs have take home (or never go home in my case).

 

[Zelig]

I work 24 hour days for months at a time, I feel what you are saying. However, neither of us walked into our jobs with our eyes closed, its understood that some jobs have take home (or never go home in my case).

The US military should take over education duties in the US. Once they teach you how to be a teacher, you get deployed to a school of their choice.

 

[downtown]

How many hours a year do you "officially" get paid for?

I am officially paid for the 7 hours a day I am "on duty". Traditional public school teachers have an "on-duty" time of either 7 or 8 hours

We have a few teachers that do state-mandated test prep classes outside of those 7 hour days, and are paid at 45/hour for their time (one hour).

I work 24 hour days for months at a time, I feel what you are saying. However, neither of us walked into our jobs with our eyes closed, its understood that some jobs have take home (or never go home in my case).

I'm not complaining about the hours. I knew what I signed up for, and even though I work a long time, I think I am compensated fairly. I just think it isn't accurate to say I make X an hour, because I don't get paid for all the hours I log in. Nobody does.